Mystery crud in hw system

GW

I'm stumped. We have an install we did a few months ago. We ran a cleaner (Fernox) through the system before we installed the new boiler (pretty routine). Flushed it good and plenty.

I get an email saying a zone is overheating. Crud jammed the 1558 pump ifc. We stick a new pump it thinking it was a fluke. A week or two later same call. We tell the HO theres a problem, and pull the ifc and install a taco ips check. Get another call a week or two later and another zone is runaway. HO shuts the stat down and says she will try trickling the valve to let some heat flow. The Taco check is cooperating.

Does anyone have experience with mystery goop running through a hydronic system? I've installed many hundreds of systems, and I've never seen this or even heard of it.

One possible clue is the HO said one of the zones never worked in the several years they owned the home. We got the zone to work when we installed the new boiler. I'm thinking there may have been some steel somewhere in the system (all copper in the basement, 30 to 40 plus year old Bb upstairs). Possible excessive oxidation maybe.

If there is some company that does water analysis, that may crack the mystery.

We have a small white flake we pulled out of the ifc.

Would a Caleffi Dirt Mag be helpful?

Thanks for any comments.

Gary

hot_rod

Need to have a look at the crud.

Does Fernox offer fluid sample analysis? I know Rhomar has a full-time chemist on staff and they will give you a report.

It could be minerals or deposits coming in with the fill water. This is becoming more of an issue with modern high efficiency hydronics.

In a few weeks I-18 will be out and has good insight on fluid problems, causes, and solutions.

Caleffi will also have a few HydroFill carts available early next year. Connect the tap water to the bottom and it removes problematic minerals as it flows through the media bed, as you fill.

After 2000 gallons or so, the meter indicates time to replace the resin.

The resin is in bags that lift out and get replaced with new bags, very simple.

The filtered water can be used directly into the system, conditioners added, or used to properly blend glycols on site.

A number of wholesalers will have carts available to use, you just pay for the resin bags.

A small version with a clear cartridge goes in with an AutoFill valve. When the media changes color, replace the cartridge, intended for occasion make up after repairs or air purging.

Ironman

I've had a couple of ODWBs in the past few years that produced a substance that looked similar to drywall mud. The manufacturer said it was a type of mold that comes from some water supplies. It plugged up plate HXs.

Harvey Ramer

hot rod said:

Need to have a look at the crud.

Does Fernox offer fluid sample analysis? I know Rhomar has a full-time chemist on staff and they will give you a report.

It could be minerals or deposits coming in with the fill water. This is becoming more of an issue with modern high efficiency hydronics.

In a few weeks I-18 will be out and has good insight on fluid problems, causes, and solutions.

Caleffi will also have a few HydroFill carts available early next year. Connect the tap water to the bottom and it removes problematic minerals as it flows through the media bed, as you fill.

After 2000 gallons or so, the meter indicates time to replace the resin.

The resin is in bags that lift out and get replaced with new bags, very simple.

The filtered water can be used directly into the system, conditioners added, or used to properly blend glycols on site.

A number of wholesalers will have carts available to use, you just pay for the resin bags.

A small version with a clear cartridge goes in with an AutoFill valve. When the media changes color, replace the cartridge, intended for occasion make up after repairs or air purging.

Sounds like a good solution. I have used the Puro Pal cartridges to fill systems. It certainly worked. Took the tds down to almost zero. It's a little bit of a pain to set up though. Sounds like your cart will be easy. I can almost guarantee that non of my suppliers will be bothered with it though.

hot_rod

Ironman said:

I've had a couple of ODWBs in the past few years that produced a substance that looked similar to drywall mud. The manufacturer said it was a type of mold that comes from some water supplies. It plugged up plate HXs.

All sorts of stuff can be in water. It's the universal solvent and anything in, on, or around plant earth will be in water. And combinations of solids, liquids and gasses.

Add to that millions of manmade chemicals that may leach into our aquifers. It could take a lifetime to know all about water.

Treatments vary based on the problem and how much you want to "fix" the water.

hot_rod

Harvey Ramer said:

hot rod said:

Need to have a look at the crud.

Does Fernox offer fluid sample analysis? I know Rhomar has a full-time chemist on staff and they will give you a report.

It could be minerals or deposits coming in with the fill water. This is becoming more of an issue with modern high efficiency hydronics.

In a few weeks I-18 will be out and has good insight on fluid problems, causes, and solutions.

Caleffi will also have a few HydroFill carts available early next year. Connect the tap water to the bottom and it removes problematic minerals as it flows through the media bed, as you fill.

After 2000 gallons or so, the meter indicates time to replace the resin.

The resin is in bags that lift out and get replaced with new bags, very simple.

The filtered water can be used directly into the system, conditioners added, or used to properly blend glycols on site.

A number of wholesalers will have carts available to use, you just pay for the resin bags.

A small version with a clear cartridge goes in with an AutoFill valve. When the media changes color, replace the cartridge, intended for occasion make up after repairs or air purging.

Sounds like a good solution. I have used the Puro Pal cartridges to fill systems. It certainly worked. Took the tds down to almost zero. It's a little bit of a pain to set up though. Sounds like your cart will be easy. I can almost guarantee that non of my suppliers will be bothered with it though.

The cart is available to anyone, think of it as a lifetime tool. It has a very nice stainless steel cart, top quality components. It will be along the lines of a threader or press tool as far as investment. It should provide you water at under $.20 a gallon. It depends on how bad the water you put into it is as far as how many gallons it will filter before a re-bed. The 4 bag cart will do 2000 or more gallons. It could in fact do 3- 4000 gallons in some areas, so below 10 cents a gallon.



Check the fluid a week or so after you put it in at that low a number. Low numbers indicate aggressive "hungry" water. That will dissolve components in your system, ph will be low.

Generally within a few days the water it will take on particles from the system and the TDS number will rise into a safer level. If not add a hydronic conditioner to buffer it back to a safe level.

I tested 4 brands of probe type LWC, they all fail to read below about 6-8 ppm on the TDS meter. Very little conductivity in pure water like that.

I'm a proponent of hydronic conditioners after a clean and flush. They coat, buffer, and protect the expensive components for you and the customer.

This is the mid size 2 bag cart.

Harvey Ramer

hot rod said:

Harvey Ramer said:

hot rod said:

Need to have a look at the crud.

Does Fernox offer fluid sample analysis? I know Rhomar has a full-time chemist on staff and they will give you a report.

It could be minerals or deposits coming in with the fill water. This is becoming more of an issue with modern high efficiency hydronics.

In a few weeks I-18 will be out and has good insight on fluid problems, causes, and solutions.

Caleffi will also have a few HydroFill carts available early next year. Connect the tap water to the bottom and it removes problematic minerals as it flows through the media bed, as you fill.

After 2000 gallons or so, the meter indicates time to replace the resin.

The resin is in bags that lift out and get replaced with new bags, very simple.

The filtered water can be used directly into the system, conditioners added, or used to properly blend glycols on site.

A number of wholesalers will have carts available to use, you just pay for the resin bags.

A small version with a clear cartridge goes in with an AutoFill valve. When the media changes color, replace the cartridge, intended for occasion make up after repairs or air purging.

Sounds like a good solution. I have used the Puro Pal cartridges to fill systems. It certainly worked. Took the tds down to almost zero. It's a little bit of a pain to set up though. Sounds like your cart will be easy. I can almost guarantee that non of my suppliers will be bothered with it though.

The cart is available to anyone, think of it as a lifetime tool. It has a very nice stainless steel cart, top quality components. It will be along the lines of a threader or press tool as far as investment. It should provide you water at under $.20 a gallon. It depends on how bad the water you put into it is as far as how many gallons it will filter before a re-bed. The 4 bag cart will do 2000 or more gallons. It could in fact do 3- 4000 gallons in some areas, so below 10 cents a gallon.



Check the fluid a week or so after you put it in at that low a number. Low numbers indicate aggressive "hungry" water. That will dissolve components in your system, ph will be low.

Generally within a few days the water it will take on particles from the system and the TDS number will rise into a safer level. If not add a hydronic conditioner to buffer it back to a safe level.

I tested 4 brands of probe type LWC, they all fail to read below about 6-8 ppm on the TDS meter. Very little conductivity in pure water like that.

I'm a proponent of hydronic conditioners after a clean and flush. They coat, buffer, and protect the expensive components for you and the customer.

This is the mid size 2 bag cart.

After the fill, I use either the Fernox conditioner or magnesium anodes on 1,000 gallon systems. I guess this is what you were referring to?

hot_rod

Harvey Ramer said:

hot rod said:

Harvey Ramer said:

hot rod said:

Need to have a look at the crud.

Does Fernox offer fluid sample analysis? I know Rhomar has a full-time chemist on staff and they will give you a report.

It could be minerals or deposits coming in with the fill water. This is becoming more of an issue with modern high efficiency hydronics.

In a few weeks I-18 will be out and has good insight on fluid problems, causes, and solutions.

Caleffi will also have a few HydroFill carts available early next year. Connect the tap water to the bottom and it removes problematic minerals as it flows through the media bed, as you fill.

After 2000 gallons or so, the meter indicates time to replace the resin.

The resin is in bags that lift out and get replaced with new bags, very simple.

The filtered water can be used directly into the system, conditioners added, or used to properly blend glycols on site.

A number of wholesalers will have carts available to use, you just pay for the resin bags.

A small version with a clear cartridge goes in with an AutoFill valve. When the media changes color, replace the cartridge, intended for occasion make up after repairs or air purging.

Sounds like a good solution. I have used the Puro Pal cartridges to fill systems. It certainly worked. Took the tds down to almost zero. It's a little bit of a pain to set up though. Sounds like your cart will be easy. I can almost guarantee that non of my suppliers will be bothered with it though.

The cart is available to anyone, think of it as a lifetime tool. It has a very nice stainless steel cart, top quality components. It will be along the lines of a threader or press tool as far as investment. It should provide you water at under $.20 a gallon. It depends on how bad the water you put into it is as far as how many gallons it will filter before a re-bed. The 4 bag cart will do 2000 or more gallons. It could in fact do 3- 4000 gallons in some areas, so below 10 cents a gallon.



Check the fluid a week or so after you put it in at that low a number. Low numbers indicate aggressive "hungry" water. That will dissolve components in your system, ph will be low.

Generally within a few days the water it will take on particles from the system and the TDS number will rise into a safer level. If not add a hydronic conditioner to buffer it back to a safe level.

I tested 4 brands of probe type LWC, they all fail to read below about 6-8 ppm on the TDS meter. Very little conductivity in pure water like that.

I'm a proponent of hydronic conditioners after a clean and flush. They coat, buffer, and protect the expensive components for you and the customer.

This is the mid size 2 bag cart.

After the fill, I use either the Fernox conditioner or magnesium anodes on 1,000 gallon systems. I guess this is what you were referring to?

Yep that is a nice service. It should be included on all installations. Anodes more so on open systems or tanks that get fresh water.

Here is an anode on a buffer tank that Richard "Heatmeister" connected to non-barrier tube. No question the O2 ingress is reacting with the anode.

kcopp

Gary,
Tell us more about the system.
What was in there before?
What is in there now?
What does it have for emitters?
What type of piping, tubing?
City or well water?
If well, is it softened?

I know they say to run the cleaner in before but I find it better to totally drain out the system, fill and flush it, they do the install and then add the cleaner after a few days of running.
Then after a week flush it out again and add the inhibitor.

GW

There was a 25 year old cast iron boiler. There is 30 to 40 year old baseboard, maybe older. There is an addition that has radiant heating, the old heatway hose stuff, perhaps it leached some o2 through the tube. Maybe 20 circuits, all buried (mostly finished basement). What really freaked me out was there were no shut offs on the manifold...what in the world, how did the original guy purge the loops, with vise grips? We got shut offs installed so we could purge one loop at a time.

It had city water. We installed a Bosch ZBR.

kcopp

Now we are getting somewhere..... I have had more issues w/ Heatway and sludge.
I would hit is again w/ Fernox F3/F5 or Rohmar and them put a good inhibitor F1.
A magnetic filter may be in order.

hot_rod

GW said:

There was a 25 year old cast iron boiler. There is 30 to 40 year old baseboard, maybe older. There is an addition that has radiant heating, the old heatway hose stuff, perhaps it leached some o2 through the tube. Maybe 20 circuits, all buried (mostly finished basement). What really freaked me out was there were no shut offs on the manifold...what in the world, how did the original guy purge the loops, with vise grips? We got shut offs installed so we could purge one loop at a time.



It had city water. We installed a Bosch ZBR.

I would certainly suspect O2 ingress with ANY non- or questionable barrier radiant tube. The higher the operating temperature the more o2 ingress potential. Run the system on an ODR to minimize high temperature mode, as you know.

Put a magnet to the particles you flush out. If any or all stick, that is your system dissolving into the fluid

Often times those systems go through a lot of expansion tanks, it is the thinnest most vulnerable ferrous component.


Mag separation would be a big plus, but someone needs to monitor and flush it yearly maybe more frequent.

kcopp

You may want to double check if there is non barrier tubing... 99% sure that you void the warranty on the Greenstar if that is not isolated.

Jimbo_5

Last year we replaced 2 dozen zonel valves in a small school. Due to larger size, we had to cut back some of the 1-1/4" copper fintube. Much to my surprise clumps of muck plopped out, looked like wet dog crap. After installing the new valves we flushed the entire system for 2 days. They decided to add another zone valve, so we cut into the fintube again. And again it was full of this crap. Even after firing up the boiler, testing the new valve operation, and flushing while running, we still found sludge in the line. Strange.

SWEI

How old is the system? Did you happen to test to see if the muck was magnetic? Do you still have any of it?

GW

I didn't save any muck. I have a small white flake that's hard. I'll collect some muck next trip.

GW

Jimbo any bad tubing? Any leaks that caused constant water feed?

hot_rod

Either the muck is being placed inside from fill water or ongoing makeup, or it is being formed by O2 ingress eating away at ferrous components. The only way to know what it is would be to send it to a lab, maybe Rhomar for analysis.

Hold a magnet to it, that is a quick way to see what the sludge has in it.

Gordy

Jimbo said:

Last year we replaced 2 dozen zonel valves in a small school. Due to larger size, we had to cut back some of the 1-1/4" copper fintube. Much to my surprise clumps of muck plopped out, looked like wet dog crap. After installing the new valves we flushed the entire system for 2 days. They decided to add another zone valve, so we cut into the fintube again. And again it was full of this crap. Even after firing up the boiler, testing the new valve operation, and flushing while running, we still found sludge in the line. Strange.

That looks like axel grease. With muck like that you would never flush it out. No matter the pressure, and velocity.

When I worked an outage at a nuclear power plant that looks like what came out of the tube bundles. Part of the outage process was cleaning the Bundles. They used high pressure wands with special heads to flush them out.

The cooling water comes from the river so go from there.

Jimbo_5

Amazingly we had flow throughout the entire system, 2 floors worth. And heat in every room.

SWEI

Sure looks ferrous from here...

Gordy

Hard to tell because of the cut on the pipe walls seem a little thin on the bottom half.