New owner of a 1940 system

AndySun

I just bought a 1940 cottage in Utah that has a boiler / steam heat system. One of the units was putting out a massive amount of steam / humidity, to the point of the water dripping down the walls, and the windows sweating to the point of puddling at the bottom of the window frame. It was like a sauna in that bedroom. Most of the other 7 units in the house were working OK, with the exception of one, which only gets lukewarm. It took calling several HVAC companies before anyone said they worked on radiant heat and sent a guy out, but once he got the cover off (it was painted on), said "What the heck is that?", took pictures to see if he could find someone to help him, and never returned. I called another company who sent someone out, and they replaced the cone shaped vent with a cylindrical one (stamped 12 Taco), with an adjuster on the top - and, it has thankfully fixed the steam issue, however now other ones are starting to hiss and sputter, and the lukewarm unit doesn't warm at all.
From what I'm picking up here, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is a single pipe system with convectors, and the cone-shaped thing is an air vent. It is stamped with Hoffman 40. I'm guessing the other one (Taco 12) is wrong for this system since it's adjustable, and the pressure rating is too high? I think I read somewhere that the system needs to be 'balanced' / all the units need to have the same type vent? See photo for clarification, taken before the vent was replaced. And, yes, that's probably decades worth of dust buildup inside it, which I've cleaned and vacuumed out, and plan on doing the same to each one. My boiler is a Slant Fin, I can't tell the model #, but the pressure gauge reads around 4psi.
After several days of lengthy research online, I landed on this site, and it seems to be a great source of information. So, if possible, I need help identifying what type of system I have, and where to get educated on how to maintain it myself and how to find a professional who knows how to work on it if it has problems. Or, is this type system best scrapped and replaced? Also, of what was done to repair the 'sauna effect', was it done correctly, or is my starting point to fix the fix?
Thanks in advance from a somewhat clueless homeowner.

BobC

Welcome to the world of steam heat. You should consider buying some of he books for sale on this site, they are well written and will give you all the information you need. We got steam heat is a primer but if you really want to understand it buy The Lost Art of Steam Heat - well written and easy to understand.

You should replace that taco with a Hoffman 40 but you also should reduce the pressure on the boiler to 1.5 PSI maximum. Post some pictures of the boiler and the pipes around it, also a closeup of the pressuretrol.

Bob

Larry Weingarten

Hello: I think it would be great if you could find a pro from this site to come visit. I did a search for Salt Lake City with a 100 mile radius ad got nobody Perhaps if you put in your correct zip code and the biggest radius, you'll "Find a Contractor".

Yours, Larry

Jamie Hall

Seems to me that we've had some problems with a lack of steam contractors in that area before... but don't despair, all is not lost. There's a lot of high quality help here on the Wall, and you wouldn't be the first to work you way through it.

Do get the books which @BobC. mentioned -- they are good reading and will really help you a lot. And whoever you do find as a contractor!

Pressuretrols are not hard to adjust -- but a picture of yours, so that we can see what you really have before sounding off on how to do it would be very helpful.

Unless I'm missing something -- which is quite possible -- Taco does not make a steam vent. Air vents for hot water, yes. Steam, no. As has been said, that should be replaced with a Hoffman 40 -- they're available over the 'net.

Once you have steam vents on all the radiators, they should all heat. Once the pressure is down, they should heat reasonably well. If they don't, then we need to think about balancing and, perhaps, more vents -- but that will come later. None of this is hard, and there certainly is no need to scrap what you have!

AndySun

I certainly appreciate all the help, as the temperature has been well below normal here, my first priority is keeping the family warm, especially my daughter's newborn, when they come to visit.
Attached are photos of the boiler and the pressuretrol. I forgot to mention that the water level drops every few days to a level that activates the low water cutoff, and I have to go down to the basement and add water to the boiler. Is that normal?

AndySun

And, here's the best shot I could get of the pipes around the boiler.

BobC

The pressure maybe too high, turn the front adjustment down as low as you can and check the white wheel under the cover to be sure it's set to one.

Does the sight glass bounce around a lot when making steam? if it does the boiler has to be skimmed to clean up the boiler water. You should not have to add water more often than every month or so, if your using much more than this you might have a leak in the piping or (hopefully not) in the boiler itself. I can see what looks like a leak at the pressuretrol connection.

Bob

Jamie Hall

That pressuretrol can be turned down. Try the screw on top. It should move the indicator on the face up and down. Try setting it just above the 0.5 mark for starters. That may help.

You are using more water than you really should, but steam leaks can be very hard to find. Patience. Do change that one vent.

AndySun

I made an adjustment - the front adjustment was as low as it would go, but the white wheel DIFF was set to 3 - I moved it to 1.

I haven't seen the glass gauge bounce when it makes steam.

AndySun

Here's what I'm finding when I search for steam convector valve on the Hoffman website....it says that the # 40 is for a radiator (angle type), and that # 41 is for a convector (bottom inlet). Now I'm more confused. The only visible difference I see is the off-set mount on the 40, vs the straight mount on the 41. Is there another difference I should know? Is it possible someone may have added an elbow on the units I can see to put the Hoffman 40s on (I haven't yet gotten the covers off the ones that are grouted around where there is tile floor. sigh. ). I want to get this right. I plan to put in new valves on all the units while I'm in there cleaning them, and hopefully this should better balance the system, and get them all running better - right?

Fred

THE #40 is an angled vent where the #41 is a straight vent. The #41 vents a little faster than the #40. I'd be inclined to stay with the #40 since your convector is already set up for the angled vent.

vaporvac

I wouldn't consider scrapping that system. Is someone suggesting that you do? Also, while the vents may need replacing, I doubt that the valves do. Some are specific to the system so please pause before doing so. They can generally be repacked if leaking or repaired if needed. do you know how to "blow-down" the LWCO, although I think that may be a probe that doesn't need it. I encourage you to buy the LAOSH at the very least to learn some basics about your system. Congratulations on your new home and steam system.

AndySun

You are right, vaporvac, I won't be changing valves. I meant to say vents. I plan to change out all the vents on each unit as I clean them, as I'm sure they could all use it. I found them on Amazon.com, but was just wanting to be sure I was ordering the right ones before I hit 'buy'. They all have the angled pipe that I can see - except the one that was repaired with the Taco vent - the service tech took the angle out, and left it as a straight connection. Any ideas where to get the correct angle fittings?

BTW, I did change the settings on the pressuretrol as suggested above, dropping it lower - and the result is that two of my units have now gone cold. I'm guessing that indicates a possible vent issue on those units (they were lukewarm before)?

BobC

In a single pipe system it's important that the steam mains be vented much faster than the radiators so the radiators can all heat up at about the same time. Lowering the pressure means the boiler may be shutting off sooner and the steam just is getting as far.

Haw many steam mains do you have and how long (and what diameter pipe) are they? What kinds of main vents do you have now?

Bob

Steamhead

Actually, adding main vents isn't that expensive if there is a proper place to drill and tap for the vents.

Adjustable convector vents will help, but the mains have so much air in them that it can be very difficult to tune the convectors without main vents handling their share of the air.

How long are your steam mains, and what pipe size?

Steamhead

I'm sure you can get 1/8" NPT taps in Utah, and find someone who knows how to use them. It then becomes a simple matter of obtaining the vents, which the OP can do online. It really isn't that hard.

AndySun

I'm now in unfamiliar territory, so I am definitely ordering the LAOSH book today - even just to understand all the acronyms being thrown my way. I'm a newbie, remember, and just got lost at NPT and OP. LOL I do understand some, and like the idea of being able to adjust each unit - especially the ones that are the farthest away - that makes sense to me. So, thanks for that advice. I just want to be sure again, as the description for the Vent-Rite #1 says those are for 'free standing radiators'. Will they also work on steam convector units like mine? Is it the same thing?

As for main lines (these are the large pipes coming out of / going into the boiler, right?) - I don't know the length and diameter (how do I figure that out?) I know there are vents in at least one of those pipes, actually 2 vents. One was leaking badly when the tech came, so he replaced it with a Taco 12, and immediately shut it off. He said it looked like someone had retrofitted it sometime after initial installation, and it "wasn't needed" because it was in the 'return line' - though looking at it now, both are in the same 'branch', one on the vertical line, and one on a horizontal that is branched off that vertical (this one is behind the ceiling). The new Taco 12 is easily accessible, though, (photo below) so I can adjust it if needed. The other is larger than that (according to what the tech said. I'm not really sure, as it is in the basement ceiling close to the boiler, and is obscured by sheet rock. I can hear it though, so I know it is venting air when the boiler is going.

As far as how the Hoffmans are working - I've only been in the house for a little over a month, so not experienced how they are supposed to work - but, some of the units do get quite warm - but, they also seem to be the ones where the vents are spewing and sputtering quite a bit. I can even see water drops coming out the top of the vents. One that isn't working well, isn't making any noise at all, and it is fairly close to the boiler. Now, I'm not exactly sure on pipe distance, however from my novice observation, the two farthest units from the boiler as far as I can tell, do heat half-**** well, though did get colder when I turned the pressuretrol down. Neither of these units make any noise.

KC_Jones

That isn't a steam vent and if I am seeing things correctly I can't even figure out why you would ANY vent in that location. My suggestion would be to replace all vents that are spitting as that means they aren't working properly. Most likely the reason turning the pressure down stopped some from working is the high pressure is generally a knucklheads approach to getting steam into the system. The problem is usually lack of venting, which is what I am guessing you have. Also did anyone notice the height of what I am guessing is the hartford loop? I am guessing the original boiler was MUCH taller.

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/7b/9a58ade858181f8f2b80f055a07e7d.jpg

Fred

Oh my gosh @KC_Jones , good eye. That Hartford loop is way up above the boiler, let alone the water line.
For those convector vents that are spewing a little water, you need to make sure the convector, itself has a slight tilt back to the pipe that feeds steam to the convector. Also, those Taco's are not the right vents for your mains or for the convectors. If I were you, I would try to find a service company that understands steam and if you can't find one locally, try to understand as much as you can about your system and direct the service tech to do it as you instruct them. For starters you can:
- Measure the Main from the boiler to the last radiator (a good approximation is fine if some of the main is hidden).
- Measure, with a tape the outside diameter of the main. We can tell you what the inside diameter is. With these two pieces of info we can tell you how many vents you need and what kind(s) will work best for you.
- If you look at the black pipe behind your boiler ( the equalizer, coming down from the end of the Header), there is a reducing TEE with a pipe going into the side of it. Both that Tee and the elbow have a bronze painted ring around them, That elbow that goes into the equalizer needs to be dropped down to a level that is 2 to 4 inches below the normal water line of your boiler (Normal water line is the water line when the boiler is not running). The way it is now, that pipe with the elbow on it (called the Hartford Loop) is allowing steam into it and you are probably hearing some banging when the boiler is running.
- That copper pipe coming up from your boiler actually should be black iron pipe but, if there are no leaks, I'd leave that alone for now. If it ever starts to leak at any of the solder joints, have it replaced with black iron pipe.
- Get the books at the store, here, at learn what you can.

AndySun

OK, here are the measurements - that copper main is 10" in diameter, the black pipe behind it is about 11" diameter. The longest run is about 43 feet of pipe to the farthest convector unit (which is now cold). That's an approximation, but I can see most of it, and feel it as well, and it is hot all the way up to the unit (or at least as far as I can feel - which is no more than a couple feet I'm guessing, since I'm in the basement, and it's upstairs on the ground level floor.) I have one level above ground, 8 convector units. The pipes are the only source of heat in the basement, which is finished (DIY style), but isn't being used at this time (except for laundry room) - though, I have plans for a total (professional) renovation next year.

There is a little bit of banging during operation, but nothing extraordinary, in my opinion. Of course, I'm usually upstairs, not in the basement, and I mostly hear the hissing and sputtering up here. I do notice there are a few short cycles per hour - and everything I've read so far tells me that is wrong, perhaps because of inadequate venting? Does that mean main line venting, or venting at each individual unit? If it's main line, which ones are recommended, and in what position? I've read there should be no more than one cycle per hour? Does that apply to convectors as well as radiators, since they lose heat faster?

The guy who did the repairs, and put in the Tacos was from a local reputable HVAC company, was a master plumber, and seemed to understand the system well - at least he said he did. I was just glad someone seemed to know something - and, glad the steam sauna affect has been eliminated from the spare bedroom.

I'd love to get all these things corrected ASAP. Does anyone know of a steam system expert here in Utah? I'm in Ogden, about 40 miles north of Salt Lake City. If not, then is there anyone headed this way for the fantastic skiing this Winter? If so, you'll have a place to say in exchange for on-site advice and assistance. :-)

In the meantime, can you help me prioritize what I can do (with my limited knowledge, and zero experience) to make the system more efficient?

Steamhead

NPT= National Pipe Thread. This threading standard has a taper which helps the joint tighten and seal (though you still need pipe dope or tape). It is the standard for pretty much all threaded pipe in the USA.

OP= Original Poster. That's you, AndySun.

The vent in that pic is for a hot-water system, not steam. It also appears to be mounted way too low. Whoever put that in has no clue. Can you take a pic from further back so we can see how that pipe fits into the system?

The copper pipe coming up out of the boiler looks like 2", and so does the black pipe after the flanged union. Not sure how you measured, but you need to measure from one side of the pipe to the other. It should be just a bit more than 2" if my eyes are correct. You might actually see the size marked on the copper if the markings are still there.

AndySun

Thanks for the clarification, Steamhead, and for the correction. I gave you the circumference of the pipes, not the diameter. Measuring across, it looks like 3.2 on the copper pipe, and about 3.4 on the black pipe behind it. I didn't see any numbers on the copper pipe, but the black pipe has what looks like 0's stamped randomly on it, and the connector says Watts Regulator 3.

I tried my best to get better photos, but it is a tight fit down there. The one of the whole boiler shows the vent in the very top of the photo, backlit from the access door behind. Then, I went around to the back access door, and got as far back as I could and tried to get a good shot of the pipes, but still hard to do with very little light, even with a flash and pointing a flashlight at it. But, here they are. Hopefully you can see to make it out.

Steamhead

Well, that's better. Looks like those are 3-inch pipes- much better than 2-inch.

The Hartford Loop is way too high- it's probably set up for the old boiler. It should be repiped at some point, but I'd do the venting part first.

Dave in QCA

One thing about a convector system is they heat up with amazing speed compared to a cast iron radiator system. When the steam enters the convector it is usually just a minute or two until it is fully heated.

I notice that there is a bunch of pipe fittings cobbled onto the convector so that an angle type vent can be used. Angle vents usually have a tongue device sticking out and so fitting into piping as opposed to a radiator usually require cutting the tip of the tongue off.

The normal Convector Vent, is oriented vertically. Example, Hoffman 41. Ventrite makes on too, I don't have the model number at hand. Here is a link to the Hoffman.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Hoffman-401455-41-1-8-Straight-Steam-Convector-Air-Valve-3518000-p

I just looked up some pictures of Ogden on the internet machine. I see lots of beautiful old buildings, and lots of snow. I suspect there is a lot more steam heat in your town than some of us may realize. There has to be someone there has at least a little bit of a clue about steam. The challenge is finding the right guy.

AndySun

You are right, Dave, there are lots of old buildings here, some built in the 1800s still around. I asked my realtor, and she has seen that most have been retrofitted with electric heat sources. It is a beautiful town, lots of snow in the Winter, and very close to ski resorts - so, a desirable place to live overall.

I see what you mean about the tongue device on the angle vents. What is it for, and why would I want to cut it off?

AndySun

Hatterasguy said:

AndySun said:

The only additional thing that you must do is to verify the pressure in the boiler. If it is excessive (above 2.5 psi), the pressure will destroy the new vents. You will probably need to get a decent gauge on the boiler (5 psi) to know what you have. Be a shame to put in 10 new vents and have them be destroyed in about two hours................

Hatterasguy, thanks for this advice, and I think you are right. I should start with this step. Can you tell me who you think would be the best person to do this (HVAC / Plumber / ? ), and do you have a configuration diagram you can point me to that would explain how to best install? Something was said earlier about a 'pigtail'. And, do you feel I should replace the other gauge or the pressuretrol since I have no idea about the age or condition?

Fred

That tongue is to let condensation drip out of the vent and back into the radiator. I doubt that Dave meant to cut it completely off, just the tip. Personally, I think because convectors heat so quickly, using Hoffman 40's or taking all the added piping off, back to the convector and using the straight Hoffman 41 would work well but the adjustable vents, (Hoffman makes one also it is the 1A) is always an option at a little more cost. Maybe order the Hoffman 40 or 41 for most convectors and 1 or 2 of the Hoffman 1A's that you can switch between radiators that may not heat quite as quickly.
The fact of the matter is your steam system has a number of mechnical components and at some point, it will need service by someone who knows what he/she is doing. Now is the time to find a good service company, before you have a crisis in the dead of winter. I agree with Dave, there has to be companies in the area familiar with Steam. Ask at a local plumbing ply house for references, look on the internet for steam/HVAC companies in your area and talk to some of them, When you're out dining or shopping or whatever, in and older building, and you see they have steam heat, ask them who they use for service/repairs.

AndySun

Quoting Dave in QCA - "I notice that there is a bunch of pipe fittings cobbled onto the convector so that an angle type vent can be used....The normal Convector Vent, is oriented vertically."

OK, since I'm planning to replace all 8 vents, I want to get it right the first time. Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in operation if I use vertical or angle vents? Why would anyone add the extra pipe fittings to switch to angle vents?

I ordered We Got Steam Heat, and it's in transit. Hopefully it can explain some of these things, but in the meantime - I truly appreciate all the assistance from you out there who are clearly experts!

AndySun

Fred, very good advice, and something I hadn't thought of. Thanks!

Fred

The most likely reason they might have added the angle vent is because that was what was readily available at the time they put them on. The 40 and the 41 is the same vent except for one is angled and one is straight. It is much easier for you to just replace the 40's with another 40 and not mess with the piping. You can also use one or two 1A's as I suggested and put them on any convector that might be a little slow. They are angled like the 40.

BobC

Dave just reposted an article written by Rod (gone to his reward?) about steam heat, it has to be one of the best treatments I've ever read on the subject.

Bob

AndySun

Very good article! I like the illustrations, they really help me visualize - especially with the venting 'antlers' (I had no idea what you meant by that - I know antlers, but it didn't make sense with the venting configuration until now). I'm going to print this out, and read Dan's book as well while I'm looking for a local expert, so I can speak the lingo and have an idea what is going on. So glad I stumbled across this site, and all you great guys out there. I'm much less in the dark now, I think.

vaporvac

When you do find someone, encourage them to list here. However, you might want to post some of their installs or work first as a sort of vetting process. A picture can easily help separate out a hack from a pro.
I would also check with co.s specializing in the commercial end. Sometimes they have good referrals or may help you out. My techs are actually refrigeration specialists, but seem to love the steam. Colleen

Dave in QCA

AndySun said:

I see what you mean about the tongue device on the angle vents. What is it for, and why would I want to cut it off?

As has been pointed out, the tongue is to help any condensation to flow out. I did not mean to recommend that the tongue be cut off, but my observations are that someone else usually will cut the tongue off partially when installing into a length of pipe, as the tongue will not fit in. This type of vent is intended to be installed on the SIDE of a radiator, and in that case there is ample room for the tongue. I completely agree that the cobbled piping has most likely been added because the angle vents are what was available to someone making repairs in the past.

If it were mine, it would remove the cobbled piping and install a proper convector vent. That cobbled piping is likely to condense steam which will bet pushed into your vent and interfere with its proper function. If you remove the piping down to reducing coupling and install a new vent into the 1/8" threaded opening, it should work pretty darned good.

If you opt to get a Hoffman 1A, be aware that they can be tricky to adjust. The point that is about 3 on the scale is equal to a Hoffman #40. When adjusting, it is necessary to completely remove the screw on top and visually center the adjusting ring, as the way it is manufactured there is much play in the way it fits on. If you have it off center, position 3 can be nearly wide open, or at the other extreme, completely closed. You convectors have very little air in them and I suspect that #40s would work just fine. But, I am biased toward them.

AndySun

Dave, thanks for the reply. Great advice, yet I'm still a bit confused. I was following when you said, "If it were mine, it would remove the cobbled piping and install a proper convector vent." And, due to the condensation issue of the angle, as you pointed out, that makes sense to me. But, then you said, "I suspect that #40s would work just fine." Aren't the Hoffman 40s an angled vent? If I remove the angle, then won't they be sitting on their side? If that's OK, then I could try. But, I'm looking at my convector now and scratching my head, as I don't see how I'll be able to screw in a 40 with the confined space. If I remove the angle, would a Hoffman 41 be a better choice (if I don't opt for the adjustable 1A)? I guess my ignorance is showing.

AndySun

Thanks Hatterasguy. To be sure, what's the location this should be installed?

Dave in QCA

AndySun said:

Dave, thanks for the reply. Great advice, yet I'm still a bit confused. I was following when you said, "If it were mine, it would remove the cobbled piping and install a proper convector vent." And, due to the condensation issue of the angle, as you pointed out, that makes sense to me. But, then you said, "I suspect that #40s would work just fine." Aren't the Hoffman 40s an angled vent? If I remove the angle, then won't they be sitting on their side? If that's OK, then I could try. But, I'm looking at my convector now and scratching my head, as I don't see how I'll be able to screw in a 40 with the confined space. If I remove the angle, would a Hoffman 41 be a better choice (if I don't opt for the adjustable 1A)? I guess my ignorance is showing.

I'm terribly sorry! Yes, I meant #41. When saying 40, I was speaking of model 40 vs. model 1A. But, what I meant to say was model 41 instead of 40, and model 1B instead of 1A.

See this page for pictures. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Hoffman-Air-Valves-301000

Sometimes Ebay has good deals too.

Fred

@AndySun , what Dave meant is he would install the straight version of the #40, which is the #41.

Dave in QCA

@Fred , Thanks Fred!

AndySun

@Fred, @Dave in QCA , thank you both for the clarification, and stopping me from attempting something silly.