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Steam replacement in progress

Dave0176
Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
We started the replacement today and will finish tomorrow. Using that big 4" header!!!!
DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
Dave in QCA

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433
    EG-55 eh?

    Another beautiful install.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    ChrisJ said:

    EG-55 eh?

    Another beautiful install.

    Yep this boiler is 150 EDR smaller then what I took out. Talk about oversize smh.........
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    ChrisJ
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    Uh, Uh, Uh! Looks beautiful!
    Dave0176
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,470
    We really should have some pinup posters made (or maybe a calendar), nothing sells like boiler porn!

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    jonny88RomanGK_26986764589
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,691
    I wonder if Dan would consider allowing a space for the advertisers to have a photo album of their work associated with their ad? That way when we refer people to them they can see the work right away. Just a thought.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • New England SteamWorks
    New England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,502
    Gorgeous.
    I wonder: Does your customer know how fortunate they are?

    An amusing thought: Your customer, a few years down the road, decides to move. A new couple moves in and they use the service company that they've always had in the past. They have a little problem one day and so the service guy comes over to have a look-see. He goes downstairs and takes one look at that steam boiler with a 4" header and exclaims:
    "__________________________________________"

    (Time for a caption contest....)
    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542

    ("Time for a caption contest....")
    S**T! That is huge and it should have been done in copper! No wonder it isn't running right. Steam is just milling around in that Header.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,714
    I like BIG PIPES and I cannot lie....................
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    JohnNYCanuckerDave in QCA
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,470
    Peter Boyle in The Young Dr Frankenstein comes to mind.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Dave in QCA
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    Install is finished, got a few things left to do, like a new radiator install in a first floor bathroom, and for what ever reason the dang Gorton No.1s are all leaking steam smh......
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    KC_JonesSWEI
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    Dave0176 said:

    Install is finished, got a few things left to do, like a new radiator install in a first floor bathroom, and for what ever reason the dang Gorton No.1s are all leaking steam smh......

    don't know about everyone else, but this is becoming a bigger issue for me this season. about a 1/4 of new gorton main vents I install are either leaking steam or don't vent at all. supplier swaps them out for me, but it's a PITA.

  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,784

    Dave0176 said:

    Install is finished, got a few things left to do, like a new radiator install in a first floor bathroom, and for what ever reason the dang Gorton No.1s are all leaking steam smh......

    don't know about everyone else, but this is becoming a bigger issue for me this season. about a 1/4 of new gorton main vents I install are either leaking steam or don't vent at all. supplier swaps them out for me, but it's a PITA.

    In addition to the above concerns...... there is the elephant in the room.

    Gorton main vents close between 120F and 130F. They sense the temperature of the air going through the vent chamber, which is coming out of the mains. The air will be the same temperature as the mains. If you have insulated mains, how many will cool to a temperature below 130F when running on 1 cycle per hour?


    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433
    edited January 2016
    Has anyone contacted Ken at Gorton about this?


    Dave, try my 3/4" solenoid + thermal switch idea. I bet it'll work and I'd do it if I had the extra cash on hand.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Dave_23
    Dave_23 Member Posts: 190
    Nicely done! Will you please tell me the make/model/source for your low pressure steam gauge attached to the Vaporstat pigtail leg? Couldn't quite make it out from the pic. Thanks!
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    Bought it from www.valworx.com
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,784

    Gorgeous.
    He goes downstairs and takes one look at that steam boiler with a 4" header and exclaims:
    "__________________________________________"

    (Time for a caption contest....)

    My! What an enormous von schtooker!
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
    SWEI
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,784
    ChrisJ said:



    Dave, try my 3/4" solenoid + thermal switch idea. I bet it'll work and I'd do it if I had the extra cash on hand.

    Chris, I have given this a great deal of thought since you first mentioned it to me. Here are the problems that I see.
    1. There is a bit of lag time involved in the iron pipe heating up and the sensing element of the thermostat heating up. As the steam gets to the end of the pipe I think it is likely that some steam would come out of the solenoid valve before the thermostat tripped. However, that could be compensated for partially by lowering the set point of the thermostat.
    2. There would be lag time for the pipe to cool enough to reopen the solenoid and it would cause excessive noise at the radiator vents, which folks seem to complain about. Of course, this also could be corrected by adding a swing check into the configuration of the main vent.

    I think I may have a better idea. More to come in a week or two.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433
    edited January 2016

    ChrisJ said:



    Dave, try my 3/4" solenoid + thermal switch idea. I bet it'll work and I'd do it if I had the extra cash on hand.

    Chris, I have given this a great deal of thought since you first mentioned it to me. Here are the problems that I see.
    1. There is a bit of lag time involved in the iron pipe heating up and the sensing element of the thermostat heating up. As the steam gets to the end of the pipe I think it is likely that some steam would come out of the solenoid valve before the thermostat tripped. However, that could be compensated for partially by lowering the set point of the thermostat.
    2. There would be lag time for the pipe to cool enough to reopen the solenoid and it would cause excessive noise at the radiator vents, which folks seem to complain about. Of course, this also could be corrected by adding a swing check into the configuration of the main vent.

    I think I may have a better idea. More to come in a week or two.
    1. Place the valve on the dry return close to the boiler. Place the thermal switch on the dry return just after the last radiator takoff on the main.

    2. Leave the dry return uninsulated. The pipe will cool below the setpoint in a heartbeat once the steam stops.
    I have another idea to use a very sensitive pressure switch like my Dwyer 1824 and set it to trip at 0.25"WC. When there's pressure the solenoid opens, when it drops below that it closes.

    My theory is this will basically act as a check valve and help "suck" steam down a cold main faster. It'd still need the thermal switch on an uninsulated part of the main or dry return of course.

    I need some money and time so I can test this out. Mainly time, need time. Can I buy time somewhere?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433
    edited January 2016

    If the thermal switch is in series with the 1824, it would still need to cool before solenoid (NC) reopened.

    If the thermal switch is in parallel with the 1824, the thermal switch still delays reopening until it cools.

    The 1824 doesn't like steam and it might be difficult to to put a 24" extended pipe above the main.

    It'd be in series and the 1824 would be normally open. 0.25"WC would trip it closed. Thermal switch would be normally closed and the solenoid would be normally closed.

    I was planning on using boiler pressure where my current stuff is connected.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433

    If the switch is NC and the solenoid is NC, the solenoid is open when the switch is below setpoint (presumably 180F). How does the 1824 assist?

    Yep.........good idea.

    Ahem,
    I said the switch is normally open.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433

    ChrisJ said:

    Thermal switch would be normally closed and the solenoid would be normally closed.


    Ahem.
    Ahem,
    Pressure switch is NO
    Thermal switch is NC
    Solenoid is NC
    Savvy?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,433
    edited January 2016

    BTW, if the switch is NO, the solenoid would have to be NO. That's a dangerous condition IMHO. You don't want an open steam line if anything on the controls to the solenoid, or the solenoid itself, fails.

    ChrisJ said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Thermal switch would be normally closed and the solenoid would be normally closed.


    Ahem.
    Ahem,
    Pressure switch is NO
    Thermal switch is NC
    Solenoid is NC
    Savvy?



    The pressure switch opens the solenoid on a slight amount of backpressure. When a vacuum is created due to rapidly condensing steam in a cold main the solenoid shuts, forcefully pulling steam out of the boiler. Pressure builds again, solenoid opens.

    By pressure I mean, as I said, 0.25"WC or less at the boiler.
    It basically makes the solenoid act as a check valve.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,784
    If you are talking about the phase where the end of the main is still cold, thus the thermal switch is closed, and the solenoid is open. You will not see pressure going up and then down into a vacuum as the steam begins to come down the main. The steam will come out of the boiler as far as it can against its rate of condensation because of the cold main. As the main warms up, the leading edge of the steam in the main creeps forward. While it is possible for the steam to jump out in spurts, and then draw back, it is not common. On the other hand, a when radiators in a system are over vented, it can cause this effect called panting. But that is because there is so much more condensing ability compared to volume in the radiators than there is in the main.
    If you're thinking about relieve vacuum quickly, what's wrong with a 1/2" swing check?

    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265

    ChrisJ said:




    The pressure switch opens the solenoid on a slight amount of backpressure. When a vacuum is created due to rapidly condensing steam in a cold main the solenoid shuts, forcefully pulling steam out of the boiler. Pressure builds again, solenoid opens.

    By pressure I mean, as I said, 0.25"WC or less at the boiler.
    It basically makes the solenoid act as a check valve.

    Are you simply attempting to use this pressure switch on a cold startup to close the solenoid if you briefly dip into vacuum?

    How much vacuum is created on a cold startup and for what period of time?

    Is it really worth the effort?



    I have run a solenoid vent valve on my dry return for a long time controlled by a pressure switch set to look for the slightest positive pressure. My system is 2 pipe but I can say from experience that running at a couple ounces of pressure in the steam main the dry return does fluctuate between slight pressure and slight vacuum a lot during any cycle. So much so that when logically connected straight to the switch the valve chattered on and off and was very unpleasant. Maybe in one pipe this would not be a problem but I ended up having to latch the valve open logically in the PLC after the first sign of pressure when my vacuum is gone on each cycle for the duration of that cycle. Fortunately the luxury of 2 pipe is that there is no worry of actual steam ever being there.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,784
    edited January 2016
    My understanding of ChrisJ's thinking was that the need of the pressure switch was to allow the solenoid to open up and allow air to go back in when there was no pressure at the end of the on cycle, and thus allow the air to quickly enter the one pipe system main.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,288
    Beautiful job, Dave
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    The Gorton No2s aren't the problem, they close and stay shut, it's the No1s and the rad vents. They seem to work fine at first but as the pressure reaches 3-4 oz they seem to start really blowing steam.

    I'm at the point were if a No2 is too much I'll just buy a Hoffman No75. If Gorton don't their shat together, I'm gonna stop using them, I don't need customers calling me telling me the vents I installed are blowing steam.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    edited January 2016
    Here are the vent pics.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,288
    Try swapping out the manifold of the Gorton #1s with a single #2 and see if that makes a difference. Ive ran into this problem last year and once i swapped them the problem went away.
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    EzzyT said:

    Try swapping out the manifold of the Gorton #1s with a single #2 and see if that makes a difference. Ive ran into this problem last year and once i swapped them the problem went away.

    I did ezzy see pic number two.......
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,288
    My bad I didnt see that and still having that issue?
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
    EzzyT said:

    My bad I didnt see that and still having that issue?

    Nope works fine now. But I was trying to avoid using the No2 there as I was trying to balance uneven length mains. Main no1 is about 60ft and main no2 is about 30ft.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,288
    edited January 2016
    Glad that worked by swapping them out. I very seldomly use #1 even though I stock them. Ive had much better luck with the #2 plus 4 #1 equal to 1 #2
  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    Nicely done!

    Robert O'Connor/ NJ
  • NJHomeowner
    NJHomeowner Member Posts: 66
    Wanted to leave this in here for future customers looking at this website. I am the homeowner for this job. Dave (@Dave0176) is an absolute pro at what he does. Even more importantly he is responsive to all questions and is passionate about his craft. He is one of the few steam experts in the northern NJ area and I highly recommend him for any work you need on your steam heating system.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948



    I think I may have a better idea. More to come in a week or two.

    Any update on your idea @Dave in QCA ?
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,784
    No update as of yet. I have been laid up with foot surgery distracted by other historic preservation battles here in Rock Island.

    I have purchased a trap or two, and I've purchased some flow meters so that I can replicate the Gill & Pajeck flow test that they conducted on vents and traps. In addition, I plan on adding temperature of the air being vented as another variable in the tests. The reason for this is because temperature has a big impact on the venting capacity of some vents. I think it would be useful for it to be quantified.

    More to come.........
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
    SWEIFred