Possible repipe/boiler replacement

Dave0176

Got a call from a couple who had their steam boiler replaced back in September while they were having an old sewer line replaced. Sewer line ran under the old boiler which happen to be 35+ years old. So since the Licensed plumber was at it he suggested replacing the boiler, whech they agreed upon.

So fast forward to today and now the couple has a boiler that works really badly. I measured radiation at 304 EDR, plumber installed a Williamson GSA 200 (Weil McLain EG55) 200,000 BTU 521 sq ft steam. On top of that someone replaced part of the end of the main which is 2-1/2" and just bushed it down to 2" then reduced down to one inch then bushed back up to 1-1/4 to hit the return, all horizontal run IN COPPER!! Basically it's a nice reservoir for water to hold. And when the sytsem runs you can hear the nice waves of water as the steam blows past it, then comes the water hammer. Also there no main vents to be found. The near boiler piping is terrible, the return piping to the boiler is not right. The risers are 2" no offsets into a 2" header which then feeds into a nice 2X2-1/2X2 vetical header with a drain, the pics will explain better.

Anyway They have some deciding to do, my suggestions were we can repipe the near boiler piping properly with a BIG header to help slow the steam down, down fire the boiler to EG50 specs, and run a two stage gas train. Or replace the boiler with the a proper Weil McLain EG40 .

KC_Jones

If they decide to replace you should return this boiler to the installer....on his head. So sad, and they paid for this.

Fred

Wow, Just Wow!

BobC

Is it really so hard to look at the piping diagram in the install manual?

Bob

EzzyT

what a disaster and a shame.

hvacfreak2

That guy was getting it done , on to the next one heck yeah. I'd chose the re-pipe / down fire option , it looks like there is plenty of pipe to heat up.

Dave0176

You just can't fix stupid, or laziness for that matter..............

Dave0176

BobC said:

Is it really so hard to look at the piping diagram in the install manual?

Bob

Most likley the problem lies with the piping instructions, it calls for a minimum 3" riser into a 3" offset header, that cost more money and requires much larger threading equipment. Alot of these contractors don't have anything larger than a 2" threading die, which is probably why I see so many boilers piped with 2".

Abracadabra

Dave0176 said:

You just can't fix stupid, or laziness for that matter..............

Stupid, lazy and cheap if they won't spend the money to get the right tool for the job. Unfortunately it's guys like this that get customers by giving a quote that nobody with the right tools, insurance, and employees can touch. If the "contractor" (and I use that term loosely in this case) won't spend the money for a ridgid 141 or 161, what else is he cheaping out on to get the price down low? I see it all the time unfortunately.

Steamhead

Pre-cut nipples rule on steam boilers. If you have a full selection, most times you don't need a threader.

Dave0176

Steamhead said:

Pre-cut nipples rule on steam boilers. If you have a full selection, most times you don't need a threader.

Very true, most supply houses provide nipples up to 12" or more at request. It does however cost more especially for pipe sizes above 2". But most boilers could be piped with nipples. I have a 141 so I'm not paying $20+ for each nipple above 10" in length.

BobC

Even if you buy the pricey large diameter nipples and the required fittings it's really a drop in the bucket when compared to the cost of the job. All a contractor can do is to explain the need for piping the boiler correctly and that it only has to be done once. If a homeowner balks at the few hundred more to do the job right he might prove to be a difficult customer in other regards and maybe you should part ways.

Bob

EzzyT

Bob you just hit the nail on the coffin, that happens all the time and it's always about something that wasn't discussed and not included in the scope of work that's stated on the contract.

MikeJC

Hi All,

My spouse and I are the couple referenced in the original post here. It's been an interesting few months, to say the least. I posted a couple of weeks ago about a gargling noise in radiator (http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/156559/gargling-water-sound-in-radiator); Dave thinks the copper repiping mentioned in the original post is responsible for that noise, as steam brushes over water.

A couple of questions:

* Other than price, is there any reason to downfire the existing boiler over replacing it with a smaller one? I see that @hvacfreak2 suggested downfiring, but I don't know if there's a reason to prefer that option other than that it would cost less than a replacement.

* The original installer (who told me that he just installed the same size boiler as was there before) suggested that it was actually a good thing to have an oversized boiler because our house is old and lacks insulation. (The house is about 100 years old, give or take; we have plans to insulate the attic, but we obviously don't plan to tear down all the walls and install new insulation.) I'm guessing his opinion is probably misguided, but figured I'd see if anyone here has a view.

Thanks,
Mike

hvacfreak2

I was just thinking cost wise , but nothing beats starting with a clean slate. If the money is close anyway go with the replacement for sure.

Fred

With all the piping issues, no main vents and getting a two stage gas valve, that still won't get you down to a size that nicely matches your radiator EDR, I'd be inclined to replace the current boiler, as Dave0176 suggested. You can certainly get closer to your required EDR but you still have all the other work to do. It boils down to a question of how much difference is there in cost between the two options and which is most likely to get you the best results/comfort/effeciency. You might find a market for the current boiler to help offset the incremental cost???

KC_Jones

His opinion isn't just misguided it's wrong. The output of the system is based on how much radiation you have. So say for example you have 100 Sq Ft of radiation on a steam system. That radiation will output 240 BTU's per sq ft of radiation so that is 24,000 BTU output of the system. It doesn't matter if you hook up a boiler with 100,000 BTU output the system will only put out 24,000 BTU. As far as the boiler size goes, it depends on your budget. We can't discuss price here, but to downsize that unit to the EG 50 spec is probably 5-10% of what a new boiler would cost (talking parts only not labor). The best solution if money isn't an issue is putting the correct size boiler in. To me it's a question of money. Has there been any discussion about going back to the original installer to recover some money from the improper install? Also keep in mind if you downsize to the proper boiler there is most likely some fuel savings to be had there so it could contribute to offsetting the additional cost over time.

hvacfreak2

And I'm not thinking like a consumer either , I forget that I'm not paying someone to tinker and tweak (set up a burner , etc. ). That labor could be applied to the cost of a unit that is the right size right out of the gate.

ChrisJ

MikeJC said:

Hi All,

My spouse and I are the couple referenced in the original post here. It's been an interesting few months, to say the least. I posted a couple of weeks ago about a gargling noise in radiator (http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/156559/gargling-water-sound-in-radiator); Dave thinks the copper repiping mentioned in the original post is responsible for that noise, as steam brushes over water.

A couple of questions:

* Other than price, is there any reason to downfire the existing boiler over replacing it with a smaller one? I see that @hvacfreak2 suggested downfiring, but I don't know if there's a reason to prefer that option other than that it would cost less than a replacement.

* The original installer (who told me that he just installed the same size boiler as was there before) suggested that it was actually a good thing to have an oversized boiler because our house is old and lacks insulation. (The house is about 100 years old, give or take; we have plans to insulate the attic, but we obviously don't plan to tear down all the walls and install new insulation.) I'm guessing his opinion is probably misguided, but figured I'd see if anyone here has a view.

Thanks,
Mike

Sigh.
The original installer has no business working with steam, or heating in general unless he's lying to cover his rear end.

As KC said, your boiler cannot produce any more heat than the connected radiation can dissipate. An oversized boiler is BAD.

Dave knows his stuff, I would do as he recommends.

MikeJC

Thanks, this is all helpful as always. So, is anyone in northern NJ looking to buy a near-new Williamson GSA-200?