Replacing Pressuretrol and Pressure Gauge

jtonzola

Hello,
I am having some issues with water build up in my system that is probably due to a few issues from what I am gathering from reading this site. I am thinking about replacing the pressuretrol (i think this is one in the pic) with a vaporstat. Also I would like to replace the pressure gauge along with the pigtail. Should I leave this pressure gauge and just add on a wika 0-3psi gauge? And If so where do I put it? Also can the vaporstat just replace the pressurtrol or should I add it in addition to? I am thinking that some of my issue with water build up may be a pressure issue.

I am currently using a lot of varivents on my radiators and they do spit a bit. After reading on this forum I have decided to try to replace them with Gortons mostly NO4 and NO5 so the vent closes at a lower temp. I learned that it is super important to fix main vents first so I am going to replace 3. I currently have 4 main vents, one Gorton 2, One Gorton 1 (near the boiler) and 2 Doles I think (see pic). They are all getting hot so I think that means they are working?

The wet return lines are all angled toward boiler for draining and I have checked the rads.

Thanks for your help.

vaporvac

So what are the issues you're experiencing? do you know your rads EDR and how that relates to your boiler's output? Could we see a pic of the near boiler piping, as well? You may need different vents, but then again , maybe not.

jtonzola

The water level keeps getting slightly higher on the sight glass. There was initially banging and one of the radiators never got warm. When I changed to varivents this problem was helped I guess because more steam was able to enter cold radiator. Also both valves, one under the low water cut off system in the pic and the one off the boiler, were both clogged. I replaced them both which was also helpful.
I am away from the house for the next week so I can't post any more pics yet. I will soon.
Also to measure EDR is this just done by using the rads? Can you give me the calculation to determine EDR?

JUGHNE

The 0-3 psi could go on a tee under the pressure control with a 90 ell, nipples etc. Can we assume your old gauge does not work?

I would check the existing pigtail and where it connects into the LWCO for blockage.

The ideal steam system would never need a pressure control and only shut off with T-stat. That is maybe rare. Before adding a vaporstat I would see how quick pressure rises and how much the control cycles the fire. Until other possible issues are corrected (main venting etc.) a vaporstat may short cycle the fire more than you want.

If you add a vaporstat the existing p-control is usually also kept in the circuit as back-up, maybe on it's own pigtail.

jtonzola

Awesome. Thanks Jughne. I can't wait to check for blockage in the pigtail. I bet there is some sludge in there because there was a lot in the low water cut off system. The ball actually got stuck once because of sludge so I had to pop it up with a stick when replacing the valve underneath. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.

jtonzola

Jughne, if the gauge I have is broken should I replace it in addition to adding wika low pressure gauge? I remember reading on the forum that a 0-30psi gauge is also required? Or I guess I could just leave it if it is not the gauge that is important.

vaporvac

0-30 is required by code, but the Vstat can replace the Ptrol However, i would try to get the Ptrol working and have both, using it as a back-up. They obviously would need their own pigtail.

It sounds like you may have a slow leak in your fill valve or coil if you have one. Do you have an auto-feed? If so, do you keep track of the water added?

Fred

Also, before you change out the radiator vents, you need to address the venting on your mains otherwise you can't balance your radiators. A good rule of thumb is the equalivent one Gorton #2 for every 20 feet od 2" main.It takes about 3.5 Gorton #1's to equal the capacity of a Gorton #2 and about 20 Dole #5 Quick vents to equal a Gorton #2.
As has been said, clean the pigtail and add a Tee on top of it to add your 0 - 3 PSI Gauge. The 0 - 30 gauge has to stay, per local code, even though it doesn't work and is not sensitive enough to let you monitor boiler operation, code requires a gauge that is twice the rated pressure of the appliance. If the pressure is still high, after cleaning the pigtail, and the Pressuretrol does not shut the boiler down at the set Cut-out, the Pressuretrol can be re-calibrated per the instructions below. Nornal settings for pressure on a one pipe steam system is .5 Cut-In (scale on the front of the Pressuretrol and a Differential of "1" (white wheel insde the Pressuretrol) for a cut out pressure of about 1.5 PSI. I doubt that you need a Vaporstat but if you decide to put one one, leave the Pressuretrol there as well to act as a back-up to the Vaporstat, should it fail.
One final comment. After you get your main venting correct, don't over vent the radiators. They should be vented slowly to allow the steam to push the air out of them through the rad vent before that vent closes. Fast vent may allow the steam to race across the top or bottom of the radiator and close that vent prematurely. Gorton #4's and 5's are pretty aggressive for small to medium radiators. Trial and error is the only way to know what size vents will work best and allow an even distribution of steam across all radiators and within each radiator.
One final comment, if the float in your Low Water Cut-off stuck once when you blew it down, it needs to be taken apart and really cleaned out so that it doesn't fail should you actually have a low water situation. That LWCO should also be blown down about once a week during the heating season until the water runs clear. Typically about a half gallon of water.

PROCEDURE FOR RE-CALIBRATING A PRESSURETROL:
Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn too much, a fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (maybe 1/32 inch turn to start with). You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.

jtonzola

Fred! That was great. Thanks a million. I will keep you posted.

JUGHNE

I was going to mention to open the LWCO, now especially considering that the drain valve plugged and a stick was needed to free the float. Also the sight glass and its valves could use attention. However it is winter and there are some things not to attempt while tempting the weather. A sight glass will always break when you don't have an extra. The LWCO may not have the feasibility to be cleaned or repaired. However if tested weekly may be considered somewhat trustworthy by a knowledgeable homeowner.

Your old gauge is showing a vacuum on the system and may be stuck in that position. That port could have a nipple/tee/ plug & pigtail riser for the old P-control and some 30 psi gauge. The first tee & plug let you check for blockage and work as a clean out. The original pigtail location could get the 0-3 psi and vapor stat if needed. I (IMO) believe the primary controlling device should be on the same P-tail as the 0-3 psi gauge. So you see what the control sees.

Do you have a Hartford Loop, (pictures would show us)? It looks like you might have a check valve in the wet return.....if so after some years they may give problems on slow return water calling for auto fill to operate.

What type of auto fill do you have?

Probably plan on adding a lot of steam main air vents. That little "Dole" is sure cute though.

IMO the 0-3 psi gauge on a clean pigtail with existing P-troll would be a starting place.....see what pressure runs first.

jtonzola

Regarding Main Venting
Hello. Jughne thanks for the info. I just got back to the house finally. I tried a video but can't upload so I will explain. I measured the mains. As you can see in picture there are 2 mains coming out from boiler one from each side. The one to the left is 24 feet and there is one Gorton #1 close to boiler that is on the return line of this main.
The main to the right feeds out to the front and back of the house (there is a tee that feeds a main to back of house). The main going to the back of the house is 22 feet and there is a Gorton 2 at the end which seems good. The main going to the front of the house is about 45 feet and there are 2 Gorton 1s (I replaced the Dole vents which seemed too slow when i blew through them). I think I need more venting. Thoughts?
Question. I know the rule is 1 gorton 2 for every 20 feet of 2inch. So can i just add up 24 + 22+45=91/20=4.5. So I need about 4 Gorton2s and get rid of Gorton1s?

jtonzola

Regarding Clogged Return
So I think I also have a return line that is clogged. I think this because when i feel the pipe after the system is on for a while it is ice cold. The picture below shows where I feel it is clogged. When I feel below the coupling joint it is cold. I tried to use a wrench to turn it but could not get it to budge. Any tips on loosening old rusted pipes? Also I am thinking if I can get this off then I can either replace the pipe or clean it out if clogged?

hvacfreak2

The main that is 24 ft needs a G1. The 45 ft main needs 2 G1 or 1 G2. This is in addition to what is in place. So your shopping list would be 3 Gorton 1 or 1 Gorton 1 and 1 Gorton 2.

jtonzola

pressuretrol calibration question
I did not yet add the low pressure gauge but I will tomorrow. Question about the dial inside. You can see in pic that there are numbers from 1-5. Is this the cut out dial. It is now close to 1. Does that mean it cuts out at a lower pressure? Fred I don't see the tiny hex head. Am I missing it or is this pressuretrol different?

hvacfreak2

That is the differential adjustment. Cut out would be the differential setting plus the cut in setting. Your picture shows a cut out of 1.5 psi.

jtonzola

Hello hvacfreak. Thanks. So I will leave the Gorton1 on for the 24 feet and theN add one more?. Just to confirm. For the 45 foot pipe going to front of house use either in total 2 G2s OR 4G1s?

jtonzola

Oh okay. So what is a good number for the cut out setting. Should it be lower than 1.5? Is cut in too low at .5 or is that good.?

hvacfreak2

Yes , a G1 is half of a G2 so any combination to make the required total will be fine. It's confusing due to the connection sizes of the vents but don't worry about that just connect them to the main.

Those settings look good to me for a start. I do not know the specifics of your system but for a standard 1 pipe that looks like a fine start to me. You will learn more when you get a gauge connected.

nicholas bonham-carter

Wait until you have the low pressure gauge before messing with the linkage of the pressuretrol. Only with a proper gauge will you know the pressure. Just set it with the numbers on the front, and the internal dial. Following that, clean the pigtail, boiler port, and pressuretrol port.--NBC

BobC

That looks like a Dunkirk style boiler and while they used both boiler takeoffs, they did not put a header on it as far as I can tell by your picture. Each steam main appears to be fed with one boiler takeoff. Getting the system to work right may be next to impossible without a header. However if everything heats quickly and evenly after getting the venting straight then you are ok for now.

You could try using a torch to get that rusted return apart but you may end up needing a sawzall.

BTW one Gorton #2 (1.1 cfm) is equal to 3+ Gorton #1's (0.33 cfm ea).

Bob

hvacfreak2

Shoot , sorry for the mis information on the vents , thinking of Hoffman 75 or something. So it goes with my title below.

Fred

jtonzola said:

pressuretrol calibration question
I did not yet add the low pressure gauge but I will tomorrow. Question about the dial inside. You can see in pic that there are numbers from 1-5. Is this the cut out dial. It is now close to 1. Does that mean it cuts out at a lower pressure? Fred I don't see the tiny hex head. Am I missing it or is this pressuretrol different?

Tjhat's a much, much older Presssuretrol (probably 35+ years old) . It doesn't have the same pivot arm on it as the more current models (less than 25 to 30 years old). I do see a couple set screws there that are probably for calibration but you will probably have to play with those. The procedure I outlined in one of my earlier posts won't work on this one.

nicholas bonham-carter

One potential problem I see with your pressuretrol is the orientation of the pigtail, with the loop being in the same axis as the movement of the Mercury switch. As the pigtail heats up, it can distort, and throw the pressuretrol out of level, causing it to have a false reading. Rotate the loop or the pressuretrol 90 degrees to prevent this.--NBC

jtonzola

New Low pressure gauge installed and some 1 extra G1
New gauge is installed. The needle mostly just rattled at zero until the end of the steam production cycle then it went up to 1. It is at the end of the cycle where it seems things get out of whack. The main vent near the boiler begins spitting out a little water and the radiator vents get loudest. It happens when say I change the thermostat to the house up 3-5 degrees or so. The system stays on longer until the temperature is reached.

Is the boiler supposed to cut out even before the temperature on the thermostat is reached? Is that the idea of the pressuretrol? And judging from the gauge the pressure does not seem to get too high?

I know I still need more main venting which I am going to order. I am thinking that once I have better main venting then the radiator vents will not be as loud at the end of the 30 min boiler cycle?

Here are also pics of the new return pipe and 1 extra main vent I installed. The old return pipe was loaded with sludge especially at the elbows. Does this way of installing the extra G1 seem okay? I still need more venting which I will do next week.

jtonzola

Jughne.
I don't think my system has a hartford loop. It does not even have a header! Here are two pics of the 2 return lines going into boiler. Each on opposite sides. one return as a slight incline as it enters boiler which I always wondered about but maybe it is supposed to be that way to sub for no hartford loop slowing down how water enters system?
The water in the sight glass is a little above half but seems to creep up so maybe you are right that there is some issue of return. I am hoping that the changing of the one clogged pipe will help with some of that. That is what I was thinking. When the water level is slightly above half the water feeder does not kick on throughout entire steam production cycle.
Oh and just above the return line in pic with the red bucket there is a G1 at the top of it.

BobC

The pressuretrol limits the pressure the boiler can reach so it is normal for it to shut the boiler down if the boiler is a bit large for the system it's driving. There really isn't a lot you can do about that.

If you have the room it's good to have the vents a foot or two away from the vertical drop on the return. Make sure any added pipe has a little slope so water can drain back to the boiler.

Bob

Jamie Hall

And furthermore -- if the boiler is slightly oversize (which isn't a problem) you can expect it to reach the pressure limit when coming out of a setback, as you are doing. Quite normal.

JUGHNE

Did you prime the syphon pigtail with water before starting the boiler? If not remove the gauge and pour water into the fitting the gauge was screwed into. The water seal in the pigtail loop will smooth out some of the vibration of the gauge needle. The water seal also protects the pressure control. Water may eventually get into the loop. You can tell by feeling the top and then the bottom of the pigtail when making steam, the temp will let you know where the water separates the steam.

JUGHNE

It is doubtful, but not impossible, that the installation book for that boiler might be living somewhere in the basement. (Stuck up in floor joists etc.) You could try to Google the model number of that boiler on the Peerless web site for the book, but any install boiler manual would show you what the proper near boiler piping should look like. If you study these simple piping diagrams you will have an idea of what you are missing.
You do not have a header, equalizer line or a Hartford Loop.
The purpose of the Hartford Loop to keep the water in the boiler if one of your wet return pipes breaks open and all that water leaks out, this would keep the boiler from immediately losing all water and "dry firing" (precursor to boiler explosions when water is then added to dry overheated boiler block causing rapid expansion [flashing] of water into steam 1:1700 times).

Your system IMO is using check valves to keep water inside the boiler. The check valves have a swinging flapper inside that may stick shut or open or anywhere in between. If those check valves are as sludgged up as your return pipe was, this could make return water slow to come back to the boiler.

Now I don't know if a Hartford Loop would work without an equalizer pipe. Maybe some Pros can provide an answer to some sort of compromise for piping, as adding an equalizer line could be a major job......maybe just correct all the piping.

At the very least I would clean or replace the return check valves and piping where it is below the boiler water line.

jtonzola

Jughne, I did not prime the pigtail but I will. So just take off guage and pour water into pipe until the water fills it?
And what is a system IMO? Are these check valves just near the boiler in the pics above? They have the nut on top?

jtonzola

I think they are the check valves because I can see the arrows of direction for installation. Awesome! Thanks for bringing to my awareness Jughne. Can I buy these check valves a a Lowes or Home Depot? Also do you see all that rust on the side of the boiler with the pic with the bucket? As you can see it sometimes leaks from this area so this make me a little cautious about touching anything around the area. Can that pipe that enters into the boiler be replaced easily without taking anything apart in the boiler?

jtonzola

One more question for clarity. Is the line on the low water cut off, (where the water is fed in from water feeder if drops below) considered the line that divides piping above and "piping below the water line?"

jtonzola

Hey Bob,
So i should raise up those G1 vents a bit. Why do they have to be up a foot? Is this to keep water from spitting. What if I just put 1 G2 there instead of G1s?

JUGHNE

Yes, with the boiler off and without any pressure, remove the gauge and pour water into that opening. You will not fill it up but you are only placing water in the lower half of the loop of the pigtail. Pour in maybe a cup of water, the excess should run back into the boiler........if not then the inlet for the pigtail is plugged.

IMO= In My Opinion

The check valves have a top bonnet that "might" unscrew.....the flapper is below them. You will have to drain the boiler to open or remove them. Then I would not put a lot of force on that bonnet cap, use two wrenches always to break it loose.
If they will not loosen with reasonable pressure, then I would : for the left one.....open the union and unscrew the nipple near the boiler. Then for the right one open both unions.

Take both sections and flush water thru them to clean and assure that the swinging checks are free to move open and shut.
If they are beyond cleaning I would replace both.
These wet returns are the low spot in the system and with the smaller pipe they tend to collect the most sludge. It looks like bits have been replaced previously. Might be good to replace all the old lower piping at the boiler.

This is a "Band-Aid" solution at best. Look at a boiler piping diagram for what you really need. (major changes) IMO

Did you replace the wet return yourself?

BobC

When vents are at the end of the line they can get slammed by water slugs. If you can move the over (not up) a foot or two you get them out of the danger zone.

Bob

jtonzola

LOL. Okay, got it Jughne and thanks for the info. Yes I did replace it myself with some help from my wife. I had to use a torch to loosen up all of the pipes. I guess I may have to do that with the check valves also. I will keep you posted. Thanks again and for the detail instruction.
And I think I do have the boiler book which I will dive into this weekend.

JUGHNE

If you had sludge at the elbows you replaced/opened then the accumulation worsens as those pipe approach the boiler. This sludge may be the cause of water not returning to the boiler and causing the auto water feeder to overfill the boiler......I believe this was your original problem?

Your leak at the bucket picture might be repairable. That nipple has been screwed into the boiler for a long time and may not come out. If it does the threads of the boiler may not accept a new pipe. This looks like a result of sludge in the piping and also the boiler....IMHO.

I believe your priorities would be to get the water to return freely to the boiler, keep the operating pressure as low as possible, vent the mains as described. Save money up for re-piping existing boiler and possibly replacing boiler.

jtonzola

Thanks Bob. Over not up. Got it. Thanks.

jtonzola

Hello. Just wanted to stop back in with an update. I replaced the main vents to what I think is sufficient for the amount of main pipe. The water level is staying consistent at half way which I am happy about. Jughne I decided not to open those check valves yet to be cautious about possibly aggravating the nipple entering directly into boiler. But water pressure seems steady so that is good. Thanks. Also the pressure reading on the low pressure gauge is staying below 1.5. And Jughne thanks for the tip on priming the pigtail. That seemed to help with the pressure reading. here is pic of sight glass.

Now for my next question....

jtonzola

I have this radiator in the furtherest room from the boiler. I can not get it to heat all the way and I can't get it to heat evenly. I have balanced out the other radiators with the correct vents and they are heating at about the same pace.
With this one it originally had a hole for a vent up at the top left, which I believe is too high. I found another hole that was plugged so I unplugged it and installed another quick vent varivent as seen in pic. It heats better now with the extra venting however still does not go all the way and it is heating along top faster.
Should I plug both of these and put one 3/4 way down from top of radiator (I believe this is the ideal location for steam radiators? The problem with that is that there is no primer for a hole. But should I do it anyway and is it possible?
Also I am correct in using a larger vent to better heat this radiator?
Any tips on getting this to heat properly?

BobC

Try removing the vent at the top of the radiator on plugging up the hole, that should allow that radiator to heat normally. You might have to dial the varivent down some.

Bob