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Vacuum

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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,889
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    Ah, I get it now. Unless you want to get rid of the asbestos and give each side of the loop its own drip and vent, that one point has to handle both mains.

    Three Gorton #2 vents mounted on that pipe should do it.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    @Steamhead

    For the main an elbow, three "T's", Three Gorton #2, and a nipple.
    For the return on top of the "separator" a Hoffman 76.

    I assume the "Kodiak Controls KC25-3# Low Pressure Gauge 3 PSI" is good as well.

    :)
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,889
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    No, use a Gorton #2 on the return unless you really, seriously want a vacuum vent there. In that case, four Hoffman #76 vents will approximately equal one Gorton #2.

    You'll need several nipples to put all those tees together. Make sure everything pitches back toward the steam main.

    I haven't used that Kodiak gauge but see no reason not to try it.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
    edited November 2015
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    @Steamhead
    There is a Hoffman 76 there now- that is why I thought to stay with it.

    I am getting confused with the vacuum, as all my valves and traps are vacuum, does that make a difference?

    With that said I can put a Gorton #2 there, but what is more "correct"?
    On a side note, I thought i read on the wall some where that Gorton #2 are not as effective on subsequential runs.

    Sorry to drive you nuts I'm just a little confused.

    Thanks!
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
    edited November 2015
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    There are mechanically induced vacuum systems(they use a vacuum pump) and naturally induced vacuum systems. A Kriebel system is a naturally induced vapor vacuum system. They relied on how a coal boiler worked to bring the system into vacuum. Some have been able to get these naturally induced vacuum systems to work with intermittently fired steam boilers. A Gorton #2 is not a vacuum vent, the Hoffman 76 is. You could experiment and try to get this to work as a vacuum system. PMJ has succeeded with this but he uses a controller he built to control his boiler. Or you can get this system to work as a Vapor system utilizing Gorton #2's for fast venting. You'll need a properly calibrated vaporstat to keep the pressure low. A properly sized and piped boiler will go a long way on keeping the pressure low, only a few ounces or less.
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
    edited November 2015
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    @Mark N
    Thank you for explaining that- I think I will stick with @steamhead suggestion and do Vapor and go with the Gorton #2.
    ChrisJ
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
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    Samfiller I would suggest you obtain a copy of The Lost Art of Steam Heat. The information contained in the book is worth many times the price of the book. Owning a home with a vapor system one should be well versed in how these systems operate.
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    Yes-
    I will-
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    Just an update-
    Gorton #2's have been ordered-

    "plumber" says he will be back this week.

    Thanks again!
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    I apologize for the radio silence. The guy is finally coming to re-pipe tomorrow AM- I over heard him telling his worker to pipe out of the second top output and plug up this output. The instruction show the second output in use for dual supply systems, is he piping again incorrectly? Or the outputs are the same? (I can understand his logic but I am learning that steam systems have logic AND experience needed)

    Thanks!!
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I'm not sure what he means by "piping out of the second top output and plug up this output" If you are talking about the riser(s) out of the boiler, ideally you'd want to use both risers and tie them into the header. I'd suggest you reread the reccommendations and review the diagrams that have been provided to you in this thread. I'd hate to see you get another botched up job, maybe from a contractor who is looking to just cut corners and get out of there. Plugging a riser(if that's what he is talking about) offers no valve.
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    @all

    Its been almost a year and the guy finally started re-piping. So far I think he is following the mock ups correctly. :-)

    (I hope)

    Sam





  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    The pipe are mostly done, The electrical and gas feed need to be "cleaned up".

    Then I will clean the pipes and paint :-)
    @JUGHNE @Steamhead
    He did you use the "check valve" on the return as he insisted it was necessary I dont know if thats an issue. Should I fight hm to take it out?

    I did notice a hissing from the Gorton #2 I assume thats normal (as thats the air leaving)

    As well as a "draining water noise" in the return pipes, I will check again to night if that still there, but it might have been only after the first cycle.

    Thanks!






  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,889
    edited October 2016
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    You don't need the check valve. The Hartford Loop takes care of that, and doesn't get stuck like a check valve can.

    Also, I would have used a probe-type low-water cutoff, rather than a float-type.

    Otherwise, it looks OK.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    @Steamhead

    Thank you!! - I will try to get him to take it out-
    Any way to see id the check valve is stuck?

    I would think the fresh water supply should have a check valve no?

    Regarding the low-water cutoff I will keep an eye on the water levels - and look to replace/invest in that in the future, makes sense?
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    I didn't reread all of this post, but wonder if the water line changed with the new install. Is the header high enough above the water line? It looks a little low to me.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    @vaporvac

    Thanks, you are correct- I just measured it again, it's around half inch to low. It's 23.5 inches to the bottom of the pipe when it should be 24. I think it got messed up as half way through the repiping he had trouble and endedd up moving the unit almost 2 feet..

    I assume that that's good enough, am I wrong?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Most specs say minimum is 24"from the water line to the center line of the Header. More helps with drying the steam, as does a drop header but you should be fine.
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    @Fred

    Thanks!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,430
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    But that half inch too low is not enough to worry about. Don't go back in for just that!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    Wha-at is going on with that gas pipe!?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • samfiller
    samfiller Member Posts: 48
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    @ChrisJ

    He had to move the unit, and it got really cold out- He should be back next week to straighten it and clamp it. (as well as the electric)
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    I know I'm 'eagle eyes'. That is fine and meets the minimum. I'm just so used to seeing things above the minimum around here. :smiley: It's really great that they agreed to come redo it correctly....I was giving up hope. Perhaps they'll learn something on the way. Have you directed them to this site or Dan's books, @samfiller ? The guy that now does my yearly check-up is totally into it and has read a few them which makes a huge difference in how he understands my system. I'm off to reread this post to see if all your questions about vacuum were answered. Vacuum Rules!!! (But I'm a bit prejudiced.)
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF