New, Big, Old House - Multiple Furnaces. Looking for opinions

wildrage

I recently purchased a new house. It was built in 1906, is approximately 6,000 square feet, and has 3 different heating systems: Steam, Forced Air (both natural gas), and Electric. The electric system is small, and pretty self explanatory, but I'm mostly concerned about the steam and forced air. They are each on separate thermostats, and it appears that the thermostats are also 'jumped together' in that there is a wire going from one thermostat to the other.

The first and second floor uses a combination of forced air and steam heat. The third floor is all steam. I'm attaching some images on exactly what the setup is, if that helps.

A few questions:

1. Any thought around how the thermostats for each system should be set up? Any benefit for say - setting the steam thermostat for higher then the forced air, or visa versa? I realize that steam and forced air are very different, and have some pretty contrasting pros and cons. Was wondering if I could set things up to play to their strengths as best I can. Also was wondering if there is any alternative to using 2 thermostats - like setting each system up as a zone (or something like that).

2. The 3rd floor is a maids quarters from back in the day, which was converted to an apartment years ago. It is currently totally vacant, and will be for atleast another year. It has its own kitchen and bathroom. It looks like the steam heat has been shut off on that floor. Any thoughts around if I could get away with that? Do you think enough heat will rise from the 1st and 2nd floor to prevent pipes from freezing? I know its going to depend on a lot of factors, including outside temperature, and I'll have to just monitor it, but wanted to get your opinions.


Thanks!

wildrage

Updated 1st floor schematic...missed very large, 7 foot steam radiator in the master stairway

KC_Jones

Do you still have the radiators that they tore out...in storage possibly? I can't imagine why anyone thought that was a good idea. I am sure some pros might chime in, but I think you need to decide a course of action going forward. You might be able to sort of get that mess to work, but it's never going to be right. I think you need to decide which system you are going to invest in and abandon the rest. As far as comfort goes the steam wins hands down. Forced air just can't even come close. I have heard of using forced air in the shoulder seasons and the steam for colder weather, but that requires 2 complete systems not what you have. On a side note, did you get a good discount on the house because of that cobbled mess? It also might be a good idea to get a good steam contractor in there to give you your options for the steam side. As far as controls go, I would think maybe a 2 stage thermostat that uses one system as primary and the other as secondary? Again the problem is you have 2 mini systems not 2 complete systems. It's a head scratcher for sure.

Steamhead

My best guess is that someone who didn't know steam, kludged in the forced air and electric baseboard when one or more radiators didn't heat.

You need a Steam Man. Where are you located?

Jamie Hall

Indeed. As Steamhead says, first question is -- where are you? We may know a good steam man in your area.

Second thought. The maids' quarters will probably be fine without heat, though you will want to keep an eye on them. Is this two pipe steam or one? If it's two pipe, you can probably get away with closing the valves on the third floor radiators -- if they still work. If it's one pipe, or if the valves are not friendly, I would suggest letting it run. You could put thermostatically regulated vents on the radiators if it's one pipe.

Third thought. You have, thanks to whoever took out the steam on the first floor, something almost resembling two zones: air on the first floor, and steam on the second and third. It's not quite fully split that way, but it's kind of that way. I would be much inclined to use one thermostat on the second floor, to control the steam, and another on the first floor, to control the forced air. Then I would ditch the electrics (unless your electricity is really cheap!) and find some steam radiators -- not that hard to do -- to restore the heat in those areas.

But all this is really just arm waving. You really need someone who is quite creative and imaginative to get in there and figure out what to do... (yourself, possibly!)

wildrage

Thanks for your responses!

I am in Northeastern PA - the house is an old Coal Baron's former residence. I am the 3rd owner.

To clarify, they are 2 completely separate systems. 2 furnaces. There is a mix of steam/forced air on both floors.

I really don't think radiators were ever removed. I'm only saying that because there is very extensive Oak panelling throughout the entire house, and it looks like duct work has been there for a very, very long time. My girlfriends dad is an HVAC guy, and commented that all the ductwork was joined with lead, which he said was very old school. I guess the radiators could have been torn out at sometime, but they would have had to do an absolutely amazing job, because there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it.

To throw another monkey wrench in this, there is a 3rd, KeyStoker coal furnace that is connected to the ductwork. The previous owner, a doctor, told me it only ran once, but his wife complained of the dust/maintenance.

So you guys are saying that this was definitely all steam at one time, and the radiators were probably removed? Right now, there are 4 radiators on the 1st floor, 4 on the second, and 8 on the 3rd.

Oh yea, and I got the house for $139. It appraised at $220.

KC_Jones

@Steamhead knows tons, but It could be possible there were indirect steam radiators in the duct work originally? I don't know all the history of HVAC my any means, but I didn't think there was hot air heat back in 1906. Any evidence of the ductwork being messed with? patched holes or anything? Very odd set up for sure. Post some more pics of this...sounds interesting!

Steamhead

KC, after seeing the pics and reading the description I think you're right. A coal baron would have gone top-of-the-line, and indirect was top-of-the-line at that time.

Wildrage, are there any steam piped hooked up to that old ductwork, or evidence that they once were?

wildrage

Now this is making some sense. There are a few ducts on the 2nd floor that don't seem to be working with the forced air. Could they be indirect and just not working, removed, or disabled? What should I be looking for?

There is 1 steam main, which goes to one side of the basement, then branches out, and then backtracks to the other side of the house, and then up. The other branch goes up to the other side of the house.

I thought about calling someone to take a look at it, but form what I read, its hard to find someone who truly knows steam, so I bought the book, and thought I would do atleast the preliminary detective work myself.

I'm going to do some more exploring and get back to you.

Fred

What a Beauty!!! You got a bargain with or without heat. Well worth the time and effort to get the heating right. It sounds like you have most of the rads there and it would make a lot of sense to try and get steam to all of the rooms if you can do so without damaging the woodwork/walls/structure. I'd start by looking for steam pipes/runs in the basement that may have been abandoned and that you might be able to reconnect to. In all likeli-hood that house was either all steam or all gravity hot air when it was built. I have a 5000 sq. ft home, built in 1902. I heat with steam but installed a forced air furnace in a third floor storage area that feeds the second and third floor central air and I installed another forced air in the basement that feeds the central air for the first floor. I could have used air handlers for the air but the incremental cost of using furnaces was so small that it made sense to go that route to allow me a back-up heating system should the steam boiler fail in the dead of winter. By doing it this way, I had to do onlyminimal wall opening.
Of course, if you go steam, you will have to determine if the boiler has the capacity to add the additional radiation. If you abandon the hot air altogether, you may even be able to use some of those duct runs , as chases, to feed any steam pipes that may need to be added. In any case, I'd get rid of the electric baseboard.
If you decide to live with what you have, I think two thermostats, one for steam, in a room where most of the area is heated by steam and one for forced air in an room where most of the area is heated with forced air. Otherwise, Trying to stage the two system might be next to impossible. given none of the rooms (or most of the rooms) don't have both steam and forced air. You want to try to even out the temp in the house as much as possible and staging probably won't work.You almost need to treat this situation as if you are trying to heat two houses but keep the temps reasonably equal or using the thermostats to heat their corresponding areas to heat each area differently, based on how/when those areas are used.

Steamhead

If you need some more eyes on this thing, let me know. I've been known to travel for steam.

Jamie Hall

No, I'm not going to say it was all steam at one time. In fact, if it's anything like the house I care for -- an historic house in northwestern Connecticut -- from your description above it sounds very much as though the air may even have been first -- and may have been gravity, not forced. The place I care for has that.

In the place I care for, though, steam was put in throughout the house, although the gravity air system was left in place (to rust, I might add...)

If that is the case, you will find that the ductwork for the air system is rather large. It will be very well suited to being connected to a more modern air furnace, which can also be fitted with humidity controls and air conditioning.

If some kind angel came up with the cash, that's what I'd do with the place I care for. Right...

I would, however, have it thoroughly cleaned out!

You can then restore the steam system to function properly as well. That's not that hard to do.

Then you will have the two systems operating independently.

wildrage

Hey guys-

Thanks for the additional input! I'm going to snap some pictures of the basement piping and radiators in the morning. There are some pretty interesting radiators in the house - most of them the short, chubby, and long variety. Nothing looked all that odd down in the basement, other than a pipe leading from one of the steam mains going into some sort of condensation pump? If that makes any sense...And steamhead, I could always use some help! I'm about 80 miles NW of Philly and 120 miles due West of NYC.

So far, I haven't done much to the system. One radiator had some nasty knocking, and another wasn't working. I Re-pitched the knocker and replaced the vent on the inoperable one with great success. Most of the radiators had/have the old Warco adjustable vents still on them - which I'm told are pretty old.

Jim

wildrage

Ok, so I have some pictures. First, i have questions about what this set of pipes / apparatus is. The first 3 pictures are a network of pipes that come out of the steam main, go down to the ground through a trench in the floor, and to some sort of apparatus. What does this system do? One pic is a shot of the 3 furnaces, a close up of the steam furnace, and one of the ductwork coming from the now forced air furnace. The last pictures are some examples of the radiators. There are 3 on the first floor, one 7 foot one on the front stairway between 1st and second floor, 4 on the 2nd floor, primarily in the bathrooms, and 6 on the 3rd floor. They range in sizes from 3feet long to 7 feet. Approximately 4 are 3ft, 4 are 4 feet, 3 are 5ft, and 2 are 7 feet long.

Thanks for your help!

Jim

Steamhead

The basic system is one-pipe steam. We know this because there is only one pipe connected to each radiator.

Pipes3 is a condensate pump which fills with condensate (water) and then pumps it into the boiler. Not sure why it's there, unless for some reason the condensate won't return by gravity.

Pipes1 and pipes2 are "float-and-thermostatic" steam traps that were most likely installed to keep steam from reaching the condensate pump tank. The silver thing in pipes1 is a cute little air vent that is pathetically small if it's venting an entire steam main.

The ductwork looks newer than the house, at least that part of it does.

And the steam piping around the boiler is wrong- the horizontal portion right above the boiler reduces in the wrong place.

KC_Jones

Just a thought here. Is it possible those forced hot air outlets were once built in radiators or convectors? They reused that area for forced hot air outlets? Pull the radiator cut a hole in the floor and hook up duct work. I am always fascinated with the history of a house and this one has me very intrigued.

Fred

In 1906, if there were hot air in the house, it would have been coal, gravity hot air. Do you see any indications in any of the rooms of register openings , maybe 12"X16" have been closed up or any larger, maybe 36"X 30" return airs have been sealed? Do the rooms that don't have radiators have fire places, either small coal or any indication of Gas keys (round brass disc flush with the floor) in the floor?

wildrage

Steamhead:

Thanks for the clarification. I don't think that silver thing is even a vent - I can't see any sort of hole anywhere in it. I don't see any place in the steam mains where a vent could be installed - but many places in that condensate pump pipe network (areas with plugs in them) - can I install vents in those?


Fred:The 2 rooms that don't have heat have the small, 12x16 registers. I live in the center of coal country, and when this house was built, coal was king - so that wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of coal system. The only thing that makes me doubt it is I can't find any remnants of a coal bin. It's been my experience that even if a house hasn't been heated by coal in 50 years, there is typically some left over sign of the coal dust. The rooms that do not have radiators have ductwork - that larger of which could have replaced the smaller ductwork. There is only one room that has nothing (currently has electric baseboard). It is a 'sitting room' directly to the right of the front entrance.

Another question for the group. There is zero heat going to the 3rd floor. I can't see any way to turn it off, so I'm guessing the only reasoning is a venting issue? For a while, I got no heat to the last radiator on the 2nd floor. I took off the vent to look at it, put it back on, and magically it started working the next time the boiler turned back on. There is a main going form the 2nd to the 3rd floor, that gets very hot, but none of the radiators get even remotely warm (cold to the touch). Just wanted to know if you had any ideas on how else the 3rd floor heat could be turned off if all the radiators are turned on. Since the floor is vacant, I'm inclined to just leave it like it as is (I don't want heat up there). If there is indeed too much air in the pipes/improper venting in the 3rd floor, would just leaving it as it is cause any harm to the system?

Thanks again for all of your responses.

EDITS:

1. I stand corrected, that is a vent. The hole on the top is like a pinhole. Also, if I replace it, all the vents I see have a way smaller stem. Do main vents have different stems, or would I just stick a reducer on it?


2. I found some previously used ductwork - presumably going to the 2 rooms with no heat....

wildrage

Here are the pics - wouldn't let me add them when I edited...

Fred

If the boiler is sized for those third floor radiators (and I would expect it is) the boiler will short cycle on longer runs when the temp dips. It won't hurt the boiler but is is some extra wear and tear on the Pressuretrol. If you can see where that riser that goes up to the third floor ends (on the third floor) check and see if it has a vent on top of it. If it does, it may be stuck closed and not letting air escape. If iit doesn't, it would be a good idea to put one there, maybe a Gorton #2 to let the air escape out of the riser and not put all that burden on the radiator vents. I suspect the third floor isn't getting heat, at this point is because that riser may not be vented coupled with the fact the outside temps haven't been cold enough to allow the boiler to run long enough to push all the air out through those small radiator vents. It's not unusual in houses of this period not to have a register or radiator is a small room. Sometimes they even put a register in the ceiling in the room below it and a small register right above in the unheated room to allow heat from the first floor rise into that room. If that were the case here, you'd see some indication of a register having been there. Maybe it heated enough from the surrounding areas. The fact that you can't find a coal bin is not surprising. Many times coal was dumped through a basement window (or a coal door that may have been replaced with a window) and allowed to sit in a corner of the basement. Many people partitioned a small room in the basement off to hold the coal/dust but not everyone did that. You can rest assurred that when that house was built, it used coal to fuel either a gravity hot air system or a steam system. The question is which. Look around all of the rooms and see if you can find any areas along the bottom of the walls where wall registers may have been. They may have been just above the woodwork or they may be a cut out (that has been patched) in the woodwork. If you find them, I'd bet the ductwork may still be behind those walls.
The dry returns that feed the condensate pump can have vents installed as they are attached to the ends of the mains as long as they are up along the basement ceiling. doing so will mean that steam will travel down that pipe to that point so you'll want to make sure the steam traps that Steamhead refered to, above are working properly.
PS: That silver thing that Steamhead refered to is definately a vent. The opening should be at the top of it.

wildrage

Fred:

Thanks for the well thought out response...you have a lot of patience. There are smaller registers in the wall, and ductwork behind them, so you're right there. Also, the room with no heat, does do quite fine if I just leave the door open. Believe it or not, the rooms with only electric heat on the 2nd floor do quite fine if I just leave the doors open too. Right now, I sort of like the fact that there is no heat in those 2 rooms, as I am a single guy living in a 8 bedroom house haha.

The valve that we are talking about is a vent-rite #35. From looking it up online, they are still making them, and they are for 'smaller systems.' Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions on the proper size to install?

Fred

You've got me Beat! I'm a single guy living in a 5 bedroom house. As far as venting, you will want to measure the length and diameter of your mains. The rule of thumb is the equalivent of one Gorton #2 vent for every 20 feel of 2" main. That vent-rite won't do the job.

wildrage

Thanks! I've got atleast 50 feet in the basement.

Fred

If 50 feet, put two Gorton #2's and 2 Gorton #1's on an antler that you can build using 3/4" black iron nipples and Tees/elbows and install that anywhere after the last radiator run or on the return pipe.

Robert_25

The pictures of the interior are beautiful. I would love to see a picture of the exterior.

I've seen some of the old coal baron homes in Jim Thorpe, they are impressive. Keystoker is still in business today, and there are some good dealers in your area to get that unit running...or remove it if you are not interested in burning anthracite.

wildrage

Thanks! Here's an exterior picture:

Fred

OMG!! So, So Beautiful! Here's a picture of mine:

wildrage

Wow very nice. I see we have similar tastes! What part of the country are you located in?

Fred

I'm in Ohio, Dayton to be specific

wildrage

oh cool..not terribly far away. I'm in PA, not too far from state college. I have some friends out in Dayton.

Steamhead

Both those houses would fit into the Roland Park neighborhood of Baltimore. Plenty of steam there, too.

JUGHNE

In Des Moines, IA at the living history farm is a restored upper class house such as this (relatively speaking, not coal but probably corn baron). Very ornate inside. Many fireplaces without fire. Each unit had an original era grill/register where the firebox would have been. All the brick and mantle work was in place. There was a hot air gravity system in the basement which fed all these faux fireplaces. The brick work for chimney you saw on the first floor was actually the duct work going to the second floor. Of course no tours of the basement . The house has modern AC with very well placed vents so the basement is far from original.

As far as no evidence of a coal room in your house, If there was an outside cellar entrance it is possible there was a coal shed out back and servants hauled in the coal as needed daily. (The owner would have know how dirty the coal room made the house). I have always been able to find the coal room in an old house. Outside coal door is usually cast iron. typically larger than basement windows. Maybe the air system was for shoulder seasons?

wildrage

Good point. There is outside access, so that makes sense.

As an update, I got everything working. You guy are going to think I'm an idiot, but one of the bedrooms had a programable thermostat hidden away, that was controlling the steam heat. The second thermostat I was seeing downstairs was for the Coal heat. It was set to click on at like 3am, I guess in time to warm up for the morning. I can't believe I missed the thermostat, but it is a 9 bedroom house, and it was hidden on the side of some molding.

So the setup sort of makes sense now - the first floor is almost entirely forced air, so it makes sense that the thermostat is there. The 2nd and 3rd floor is almost all steam, so the thermostat is there. Sort of like a convoluted 2 zone system!

I also found an old register from the indirect gravity system. It is incorporated into some ornate woodwork, so it was not messed with. I'll take a picture when I get a chance. When I shine a flashlight down there, I see what looks like a metal plate, and some really old newspaper pieces.

The 3rd floor radiators had all of the vents turned upside down, which I read in another post on this forum, was probably purposeful, as people typically do that to turn the heat off to a radiator. I rotated them all, and got steam tot he radiators almost immediately.

Thanks for all your help!

Fred

Sounds like you've got it figured out! Best of luck. Enjoy your new home and take good care of it.

Jamie Hall

Delighted! You are going to have such fun!

Steamhead

Jim, it was great to meet you and your steam system today!