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HOTSHOT R414B.....mix with R417C (HOTSHOT #2)

Had a mild burn out on 3 HP Coplamatic compressor. Medium temp walk in cooler in a meat market.
This was a new comp in 1971, (impressive for 44 years old). This was converted from R-12 to R414-B in 1998. It needs topped off for the winter charge. I am out of R414-b and wandered if anyone has had any success topping off with R417C which is half price of the R414b. One jug will set you back over 6 bills.

Comments

  • John Mills_5
    John Mills_5 Member Posts: 935
    ICOR says specifically that these "alternatives" not be mixed. Who knows what the final result will be. If they want a reliable system, might be best to recover the Hot Shot and refill with Hot Shot 2. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.
  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    A few months ago 414b was only 2 and a half bills here on LI, NY.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,545
    Thanks for the responses.
    I really knew that answer of not mixing gases.......but some things have been done outside the box with success.

    Hotshot "2" (R417-C) is that half price amount here. But not the original R414-B Hotshot.

    So I have to buy 2 jugs of the newer gas to recharge the system OR just get one jug of the older gas to top off. Plus dispose of 30+ pounds of recovered old gas if it is changed. This is the only customer for me who has this type of charge.
    .
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,793
    edited November 2015
    Slightly off topic but,

    I'm surprised at all of the blend refrigerants out there in general. Isn't R414B a blend?

    I thought blends were highly frowned upon as any leak usually results in throwing the blend off and causing immediate problems?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,545
    Out of the 5 different gases I deal with, (and I'm really small potatoes in this business), only old R-22 is not a blend. You can charge it in a vapor state. The other 4 require the jug inverted to charge only with liquid, otherwise the gases will fractionalize out of the top of the tank.

    I read that it depends which state the gas is in as it leaks out,(liquid-vapor or somewhere in between) may or not affect performance. I would hazard a guess that many blends are just topped off.........back to the crap shoot.....but when do we know that the mix is too far out to properly cool??
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,130

    If you want to do it right change the oil to POE and charge with R-134A
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,793
    edited November 2015
    JUGHNE said:

    Out of the 5 different gases I deal with, (and I'm really small potatoes in this business), only old R-22 is not a blend. You can charge it in a vapor state. The other 4 require the jug inverted to charge only with liquid, otherwise the gases will fractionalize out of the top of the tank.

    I read that it depends which state the gas is in as it leaks out,(liquid-vapor or somewhere in between) may or not affect performance. I would hazard a guess that many blends are just topped off.........back to the crap shoot.....but when do we know that the mix is too far out to properly cool??

    That's why I asked, what happened to mixes being a "bad thing". Now it's the norm.

    I think the US needs to lug nut up and switch to R290 like many other places. I work with a flammable refrigerant all of the time and somehow I haven't blown my self up. :)

    Sorry back to our normal programming.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    SWEI
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,545
    Pecmsg, thanks for the advice. That has been suggested by others also. So I will add another color of jug to the stable. (at least I can put it in my vehicles AC's :) )

    I would like to run the system by you for consideration:
    .....New compressor was shipped with POE oil
    .....Old oil was of course mineral oil
    ....1 1/8 & 1/2" lineset is about 70' long, drops into pipe tunnel and then rises 15' to 2 evp coils.
    ......the 2 TXV's are Sporlan BFF- A-C FC/JC (R-12/R134A?) 1/2 to 1 ton.
    .....the coils have 7200 in their Mod number, I'm assuming 7200 BTUH each.

    I wonder how much old oil is retained in that piping and if it will affect things.
    The TXV screens were cleaned after 48 hours; nearly plugged, system started to pump down within hours.
    LLFD & SLFD changed after 72 hours of operation, large HH capacity for both. Sawed both old ones open; LLFD not too bad, just off white.....SLFD was solid black. SLFD had been installed backwards 40 years ago. Was simply a felt looking filter with no desiccant.

    This compressor LALA-032E has a med temp capacity of 28,000 BTUH, so any decrease in capacity should not be noticed.

    One supplier said you could charge 134A as a liquid OR a vapor?
    I believe it is still a blend or not?
    Thanks for any further input!
  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    edited November 2015
    What is the box temp,product,and operating press's?The evap coil rating of 7200 btu's is based on a 10* TD ,or with a box temp of 35*, and a 25*EvapTemp. So, the running suction press would have to be = a P/T of 25*f, which is about a press of 22psi w/ r134a.

    Now if you have a low side press of about 18psi then that is a freon temp of 20* which means your system has a 15* TD of the evap coil to return air temp. That also means the evap coil btu's is now 7200btu(10*TD) + 3600btu (5* more TD)( 10*TD + 5*TD= 15*TD)more, making the evap a 10,800 btuh coil. As the evap temp drops so does the comp btu's so at a 20*ET, the comps puts out KindaSorta 25,000btu.

    How long have the TXV's been in place? How much oil was in the original comp?
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,545
    edited November 2015
    Techman, thanks for the response.

    The walk-in box is 15 X 20 X 12' high......it can hold about 36 halves of hanging beef as it comes from the kill room. 4-6 fresh halves added about every other day. Right now with no new activity the box air temp is at 33 degrees.

    From old notes written on cond unit the pressures were 22/185 when gas changed from R-12 to 414B in 1998.

    With cleaned TXV screens we had 15/ 140-170 PSI.
    Today it is 8/125 PSI.....thinking need to clean screens again tomorrow.....pressure drop across SLFD is about 1/2 PSI.

    TXV's were new April of 2002. Originial oil charge was in old comp, amount unsure, if any added on start up in 1972 is doubtful. New comp came with POE fill. Looks too full now??
    Could be old returning fm line set.
    Oil Sight glass design has changed from old, now with perforated screen behind glass on new comp, so amount is hard to see for sure.
    Thanks again.

    New compressor is Copelamatic LALA-032E TAC (800)
  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    I believe that w/ fresh anything (meats) the evap coil TD, it is MANDATORY to be at 10*TD.. So w/ a 33* box temp and 10*TD the freon should be around 23*, or about20-22 psi.. What are SH & SC #'s. Can you check the RH% in the box?

    10,000 lbs of beef go into a WIR w/ wrong refrigeration and 8,000 lbs of beef come out, 2,000lbs of water(from the product) went down the drain along w/ the customers profit.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,545
    This beef is privately owned by individuals, finished product wrapped and stamped "Not for sale". Custom butchering, very common here, your own animal walks in (reluctantly) and you pick up frozen wrapped products for your own freezer.

    Now, the butcher/meat processor charges by the pound weighed in the kill room before your halves go into the cooler. Your cost for your finished product is based on that weight, I believe most beef hangs for 2 weeks for "ageing". I buy a grass only fed beef (free range) from a private rancher and that might hang only 1 week. (Less fat, very lean). This seems to be the common practice. Individuals may chose their own ageing. (more or less time). So the weight loss is not a consideration for profit.

    I'll return to cooler tomorrow, probably check & clean TXV screens.
    doughess
  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    edited November 2015
    Are these sides of beef "aged", unwrapped/exposed to the air and they get all fuzzy looking? The "fuzzy stuff" is how real expensive (aged)Steak House do it , and you get charged accordingly.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,545
    edited March 2016
    So the rest of the story. The new system now runs on 134-A. It has had 3 oil changes each 2 weeks apart. The 134-a was charged in with the 3rd oil change, TXV screens now clean.
    But ......5 days later the LLSV stem gasket leaked out 30# before owner noticed. Refrigeration buddy said that happens with R134A/POE oil, old gasket/O-ring material will fail. Don't know if it was the gas or oil?

    Controlling T-stat had to be set lower to achieve what the owner wanted.
    See above for reference to "fuzzy beef"...... 6 whole beefs (12 halves) got too fuzzy on the inside, talk about expensive beef, the owner had to shell out about $20,000 to the owners of these cows. His insurance company picked up most of that bill. First claim in 50 years.
    The core temp of the halves did not drop quickly enough and as they started to process the beef they could tell that the inside was too "fuzzy"....into the gut house for the rendering truck. :o

    On an electrical note; when the compressor first shorted to ground it tripped the CU breaker, the CB would not reset as it had failed internally mechanically. This was good for the owner as he would of course kept trying to reset it for a restart and complicated the burn out. As it turned out there was no acid producing burn out. The old oil tested clean even though it looked bad.

    I include a picture of the CB, the line terminals (bottom of picture) have looked that way for 35 years, the breaker would function on & off fine. I knew if any rewiring was needed this would have to be changed.......now when looking at this obvious short to ground, would one do this 3 times before shutting off the feeder to the CB. Once maybe, but 3 times? This wasn't my screwdriver by the way!

    Also, thanks to all for good advice!