HTP-UFT Boiler

Zman

The discussion about this boiler on another thread intrigued me.

I started another thread to ask some questions without continuing the Hi-Jack.

Is it the same FT heat exchanger that was introduced by triangle tube?

I know Triangle Tube had trouble with the efficiency when they tried to turn it down that low, I wonder what HTP is doing different? I can't help being a bit paranoid after the Volkswagen ordeal.

Both Triangle Tube and Lochinvar are routinely installed at high altitudes. They both have had issues with the units making a trombone sound at low fire (4/1 and 5/1). With a 10/1 turndown, how is the noise?

Has anyone installed the HTP at altitude?

The manual has several warnings about minimum flow rates yet never list what those rate are at low fire. The math works fine for me with 1 GPM on the 80k/btu model at low fire, it would end up with a delta t of (8,000 x .92) / 500 = 14.72 degrees. I just don't see it in the manual. The controller looks like it is OK with delta's up to 55 degrees.

I wonder at what point turbulent/laminar flow becomes an issue?

The boiler only has an on/off circ controller. I have only browsed the manual but have not seen a part about the delta t circ options.

I am certainly not doubting the statements some have made about this product, just wondering if they have info not represented in the manual.

This would be a perfect fit for a job I am looking at which is at 9,200 ft above sea level. I am just reluctant given it is relatively new with marginal local support.

Thanks in advance,

Carl

As long as I'm asking questions,
Why does the manual say to derate the product 4% per thousand for altitude when virtually every other forced draft appliance derates at 2%?

4Johnpipe

Will make a few calls about altitude issues. The on site manual is being updated. We do not need primary secondary for all applications. You would not have the need for the boiler pump in this case.

Zman

The job I want to put it on is a combination of radiant floor and low temp panel radiators.
I do wonder what will happen at the super low flows. I don't think the boiler will be damaged, I don't worry about air lock, I wonder if the flow through the exchanger will either be uneven or laminar and mess with the performance.

HTP just needs to send out some demo models.
I will put one in my house at 10,000 feet, Hatt at sea level, SWEI is around 6,000 feet.
Send us the boilers, we'll give you the experimental data..

Gordy

I like the boiler I really do I'm always a skeptic though. Not trying to bash the product just asking questions. There will always be existing system that this will need be a p/s, or hydraulic separator pipe.

njtommy

That's a really large delta T. Which is awesome for a mod con boiler.

But what about Thermal expansion? I believe I have read before you need to keep it under 35-40 delta T on certain units. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Zman

Being as the firetube is welded, I doubt expansion is much of an issue. Not like cast iron sections with gaskets.
They appear to have the controls set up to allow 55 delta.
Why do they still set the minimum flows based on full fire?

Zman

Hatterasguy said:

Zman said:

Why do they still set the minimum flows based on full fire?

Exactly.

It's irrelevant AFAIK.

There must be a threshold where the flow is too low. A point where the water is no longer distributed evenly across the exchanger and turbulent flow ceases to happen. That is the number I would like to see.....

Paul48

Other mod/cons do not play nice with DT circs. Unless the boiler is controlling the circ, it may still be a problem.

Gordy

Hat so how are you going to control the 2218?

I see no magic bullet here nice features yes,

The water content of the hx is more compared to some others.

there is still the modulation circ sync that needs addressed no?

Why does the uft only give btu input and no output ratings for ibr?

Gordy

The 2218 on speed one needs 3.5 feet approx. to get 1 gpm. Delta t mode takes to much time to ramp up and down unless maybe constant circulation is used that might curb that issue. I look forward to the results.

While there are some nice features they dropped an on board circ, and I don't see 0-10vdc capability.

Rich_49

Page 36 Gordy , Cheese and Rice . Right on the low vaoltage strip .

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-542.pdf

why have an onboard circ in a boiler that may or may not need it . Boilers that do not require P/S should not have an onboard pump , that would just be dumb . People would be limited on what they wanted to do .

Again with Laminar and turbulent flows ? Is it required to punch a 125 man when a smack will do ? Reynolds numbers are for fluid to pipe to fluid , fluid to pipe to solid , not for heat exchangers where water is on one side and a gas is on the other . Look it up , it's actually quite interesting the work that Osborne Reynolds did . Don't forget to research the never talked about ( on purpose) transitional numbers where most systems actually operate might I add . You do not require any more energy or heat transfer than is required . Maybe that is the problem , a lack of recognition of the facts . Here is an interesting presentation that may help , Enjoy .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8re7q1Ejg1U&index=1&list=PLmcHo13VjwLlMcNbRS-rDgEHWk8CMf1xA

Paul48

I saw that 0-10v on the low voltage terminal block, but couldn't find any mention of it in the manual, and no piping schemes that employed it.

Rich_49

I am of the belief that we should not require piping schematics gents , we know how to do this . Pictures are for the ignorant in most cases . If the manufacturers did away with pix idiots would not attempt to install .

Paul48

Rich.......Is there a 0-10v output, to run a Taco VV?

Paul48

Hat.......Taco makes a variable speed outdoor reset circ. I wonder if you could sync it to the UFT? Basically match the curves. I think it's available in any of their "00" series circs.

Gordy

I'm assuming that the magic bullet you speak of is for high temp emitters.

Gordy

Rich said:

I am of the belief that we should not require piping schematics gents , we know how to do this . Pictures are for the ignorant in most cases . If the manufacturers did away with pix idiots would not attempt to install .

Apparently HTP and others would disagree Rich. Even HTP wants a slice of Darwins pie with westing house mod/cons being sold in Menards where they roam.

Gordy

Just so we are clear on where the benefits are Hat.

The modulation is great, but not revolutionary IBR has been doing it for how long? They are just stuck on a 15-150k for to long. Dare I say Navien boasting 7:1, 10:1, 11:1, and 15:1.

Most mod/con manufacturers allude to return water temps being crucial in gaining the most efficiencies.

So when you state that mod/cons don't get as advertised efficiencies I will assume your talking about high temp applications?

njtommy

Mod Con boilers and mass seem to go hand and hand. Other then this HTP

Rich_49

You hit it right on the head Tommy . We had to add mass to make a mod con what it always should have been . We had to do P/S piping , buffer tanks , special gizmos all because we were told these are what it is . Turns out though after several years all they gave us was a POS and a bunch of different rags to polish the Turd . Have a feeling this aint a turd , based on the numbers , and everything aligning with true TDR and the one that is killing it at low flows in my job with panel rads , tRvs and no thermostat in the beginning of shoulder seasons .
But if it is at least we have a shot at selling and it does not stink as bad as the rest of the turds .

In short , we were given the cats butt boiler then told we had to do this and that because that was the nature of the beast . Because system side flows are regularly below the flow rate the boiler requires . So we , stupid asses that we are believed this for awhile and never questioned why a boiler that stated a 15k, 20,k , 10 k low end modulation required flow rates that did not jive with the load .
LLHs , buffers and lies , Oh my ! Don't forget the 2 circs !

Gordy

IBC boilers typo Hat. Their VFC is 10:1 15-150k

They also give minimum and maximum flow rates in black and white, and max delta t of 40. Also their sl line up

SWEI

The stated minimum flow rates are always quoted at high fire, which is appropriate for sizing the pump.

The boiler controls actually look at supply & return water temps (plus slope in many cases) to determine if there is a problem or not.

njtommy

@Rich you got to post some pictures of that job.

njtommy

Yup it modulates down. Yes it sure does and now we are see more more oversized boilers.

The primary loop is killing efficiency. I see it at my own house. 10 delta t on the primary while I'm running 20-25 on the secondary loop.

Rich_49

@Gordy

Their numbers would suggest flow at a 3.75:1 TDR @ 4 gpm on the VFC . Why are we flowing 2.5 gallons more than what 15000 output requires . Mind you the system side requiring 15000 BTUs if set up dead nuts would be flowing 1.5 gpm . The system side must be flowing = to or > than boiler flow for this to work . Although not yet in a pretty little spread sheet format , HTP has shown min and max flow rates on 2 charts on pages 36 - 7 . Please note that the flow rates at high fire actually coincide with output .

I repeat , boiler side flow should never be greater than system side . On this can we agree ? The boiler must be allowed to contribute all that it has worked to do to the system , otherwise we are operating wastefully .

Guys , we have been taught much by the industry in which we operate in order to make them look intelligent . I believe we are at present intelligent enough to know better , can we please act as such ? It is not uncommon for the students to get smarter than the teacher and call him out on his common core curriculum that was set up to serve a larger entity .

Rich_49

I will be back there next week doing some plumbing , will take then and share .

Gordy

IBC SL line up 20-115 2 gpm min flow rate. But that series does not have 10:1 tdr

Rich_49

If it does not mention a 10:1 turndown why was it mentioned ? Because it can do 2 gpm ? That is awesome and far exceeds the rest of the trash that is jammed down everyone's throat but could you tell us the high end output ?

Gordy

Hey @Rich I'm not trying to rip this thing apart it's nice. But let's be clear when and where.

I've seen a lot of the best thing since sliced bread around here only to pinch a loaf.

Let's face it most people come here with over sized boilers and over zoned existing systems after the fact that matched a new boilers output to the old. so the only solution to make that turd work some what is as you stated above.

But then there are the design from scratch that allows you to take it to the next level where before you were designing for efficiency on the emitter side, and spanked on the boiler side. This boiler Changes that I get it..

There are existing systems out there with low temp radiation that can get the efficiencies other mod/cons can give when done right. Or is it all lies?

Rich_49

Just sayin that this will allow us to make better use of our time Gordy . It is a great product . We will be required to do less design chasing just the right circ for this and that , how to best do separation , buffer . We have been making the best systems that people can have but this thing will allow us to up our game , make more money and possibly relax with our families a bit more . is it all lies , I guess , Yeah it is if the boiler does not jive with the math . This is not new for me , I get the position many now find themselves in , thinking and wondering , it's all good . Remember , i have been pushing HTP and the mass Pioneer unit for sometime and all I ever heard from most everyone is , " but the low end is only 35k " it was quite frustrating to know that my peers were not willing to reconcile and program a superior product so that it would only fire when 35 K would be used .

I have come to the conclusion after remarks from many visitors to this site whom I have performed work for all over the continent that we are , "The Best there is " . Like it or not and humble as we may be , that is a fact . Josie Reynolds told me that HeatingHelp is the " Harvard of Hydronics " .

I challenge the manufacturing community to from here on out recognize that we are not idiots and will probably not just take their word for it any longer . They will have to make products that make sense and that don't require a degree to install . Correct me if I am wrong Dan , but would it not be nice for HeatingHelp to exist to give advice as opposed to fix mega disasters ?

Try this boiler guys , see what you think and we'll discuss it again as we proceed . We asked for this , here it is , what's the debate ? Don't forget that Delta T circs can allow you to remain right where you designed the system to be for almost the entire season .

STOP , operating in the Waste Zone . We don't have to accept declining Deltas any longer . It is not the nature of the Beast contrary to what some Titans would have you believe or that we must accept. You cannot run around yelling about the Universal Hydronics formula then ignore it

Gordy

I'm thinking the 3 min start cycle on the 2218 in delta t is enough slop to make for some quirks. Maybe not depends where things fall in the modulation. I'm thinking on the low end at 1 gpm.

Rich_49

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-510.pdf

I cannot identify any quirk greater than flowing more gpm than is required to do the job throughout the entire heating season . For someone who is not trying to rip this apart there sure seems to be a hell of an attempt at identifying what could go wrong . I'm game , as always . What do you see happening during the 3 minute start cycle could be stated by one reading the Taco manual ?

Maybe it may take a few minutes for the boiler and circ to sync. ?
In my opinion that is far better than flowing more than needed through the HX for what we now have determined to be the entire heating season .
will this cause this boiler to cycle more often than those boilers which flow more on the boiler side than the system side ? NO .

Will this combination of equipment cycle less than what we have been dealing with for a whole hell of a lot less upfront cost ? Bet your balloon knot .

njtommy

3 mins isn't really that long to truly mess up your cycle. Are you able to limit this boilers capacity or firing rate for even slower start up?
I'm thinking the lower the firing rate on start up the longer your getting lower return water temp.

Paul48

As long as the DT circ doesn't cause HX temp faults, maintaining at least 1 gpm, it's a homerun. I may have missed it.....Has anyone done it yet?

Rich_49

9 panel rads w/ TRVs , 1 kickspace ( temporary) , 2 pipe reverse return , 65* WWSD . No Tstat and no problems in 3.5 weeks . Can't wait for it to get cold for long periods . Will keep you informed , if anything should happen I will make it public in the interest of fairness .

Zman

The photo of it leads me to think that it is not a Triangle Tube design fire tube like most of the others....
They have absolutely done some very smart things with this.

Rich_49

I can confirm that this is HTPs HX design . There is one more thing that they have done that I am aware of but not sure it is appropriate for me to discuss here on the forum . The HX does have fins within it so possibly more surface area .

jonny88

@Gordy I put in a VFC last week.Beautiful boiler tried and tested but does come with a hefty price tag.IMO this is where the UFT is so intriguing as we now have a mod/con that can compete with Nat Grid installers (Series 2 and water heater) for the same price .This hopefully is where I see myself aiming.VFC is a pretty select market but again IBC are coming out with a bunch of new products but all require p/s.I am talking about their competitive line HC and DC(combi) models.Also a big thanks to @Rich for sharing this with us.

Gordy

It's a damn shame this thread spins off from a thread where someone installs 100k combi for a 26k heatloss probably much less since it was the slant fin program.

Gordy

I'm quite anxious for the feed back.

4Johnpipe

The UFT is called a mid mass heat exchanger...Sent a few almost done pictures of this job to Rich. We will be back to do a final combustion analysis this week and see if we need to tweak anything...Sure would be nice to get a little cold weather here soon.! Will get some better completed shots then also...