Remove/Replace Boiler and Hot Water Tank Help!

ledzeplnrulz

Hello All,

Let me preface by saying I am a newbie to gas boilers and hot water tanks so I need some help.

Existing Conditions
Home in Warren, MI, USA
Built 1940
~1,100 sqft
Insulation/Windows not the greatest, use plastic on the windows in the winter
Current Setup (within closet space)
Baseboard Heating
Slant Fin 120,000 BTU Boiler - Water pump is seized , Consumers Energy tagged it dangerous
State 40 Gallon Water Heater - Still running!
I have attached some photos for clarity purposes.

I have received numerous quotes and I'm trying to figure out which combination would be the best.
Company 1 - Lochnivar Solution Boiler 90,000 BTU / State Hot Water Tank 40 Gal - Measured LF baseboard
Company 2 - Carrier Boiler / State Hot Water Tank 40 Gal - Measured LF baseboard
Company 3 - Lennox Boiler 100,000 / State Hot Water Tank 40 Gal - Did Not Measure baseboard
Company 4 - New Yorker Boiler / Bradford White Hot Water Tank 40 Gal - Measured LF baseboard
Company 5 - Lochnivar Solution Boiler / State Hot Water Tank 40 Gal - Measured LF baseboard
Company 6 - Lochnivar Solution Boiler 75,000 BTU / Lochnivar Hot Water Tank 40 Gal - Measured LF baseboard

Please note I am going with a standard efficiency boiler and 40 gallon hot water tank, basically remove what's there and replace it with new materials and up to code.

Not sure if I want to divulge the company names as they are listed from low-high if that helps any...

Any tips/comments/concerns/information is greatly appreciated. Let me know if you guys need additional information from me as well.

If you had to pick a boiler and hot water tank, what would you pick?

Brewbeer

Any of the companies do a heat loss calculation? Just guessing here, but Listed boiler sizes seem to be about 2X too large for a ~1,000 sq.ft. house

Rich_49

Get rid of all the quotes and start over . Every one of those guys measured installed baseboard , not the way this is done correctly . Not one recommendation for a mod con and indirect . i understand you probably drove that decision for reasons that may or may not be good ones . Find someone that will measure the whole house room by room and do a proper heat loss . Even being built in the 40s at 1,100 sf and a 50 BTUh per requirement ( hard to be that bad ) even the smallest boiler listed is almost 50% oversized . It also demonstrates that there is probably an abundance of baseboard radiation that offers a chance at lower temps and higher efficiencies . There are quality mod cons that are not much more expensive than those boilers that will save you an **** load of money over the life of the unit .

Where exactly is Warren , Mi ? Have you looked at the Find a Contractor section of this site ? If not , you certainly should .

4Johnpipe

As a great Led Zeppelin song states "What is and what should never be" take Rich's advice...

ledzeplnrulz

Yeah mainly just measuring the LF of the baseboard. I just measured it 87 LF.

1 Level home with Attic on Crawlspace. Insulation is old and windows except for two are new. So probably the over guesstimation is a safety factor due to the amount of heatloss we have?

ledzeplnrulz

@Rich, what do you mean by mod con and indirect? Do you mean high efficiency? Currently the boiler and hot water tank vent via the chimney. I did receive quotes on high efficiency boilers but they were way too expensive. They stated they would have to run the PVC line out the side of a wall and no thanks to that. Removing and replacing the what we have seemed to be the most affordable for our income. From what others have told me, just don't buy a hot water tank from home depot/lowe's.

ledzeplnrulz

Also, Warren, MI is near Detroit. Only 1 contractor is listed within 100 miles. Thanks for the tip!

jonny88

You can vent a mod/con through your chimney.Centrotherm and Duravent make a kit for this application which we use all the time

ledzeplnrulz

Thoughts on the New Yorker? A friend of mine went with Company 4, and their boiler has been hassle free for 15+years? I think I may go with them because they were the only contractor to do some more calculations than just measuring the baseboard LF. My gut tells me to have them come back out to verify their measurements ( their quote does not say which boiler size).

Rich_49

With 87 feet of baseboard one would assume a heat loss of 50,460 or thereabouts . Maybe one of these or two that recommended the Solution took into account the 2 stage gas valve . But then again they did not do a heat loss . They may possibly be able to take advantage of a lower water temp and have sufficient output to heat your home without even coming near condensing your boiler . Is that something you think you want to know ?

ledzeplnrulz

@Rich What do you mean by
"They may possibly be able to take advantage of a lower water temp and have sufficient output to heat your home without even coming near condensing your boiler . Is that something you think you want to know ?"

Rich_49

You're probably gonna receive a boiler and some piping seeing as they did not even conduct a heat loss . It is quite possible that your house has a heat loss of 33,000 or lower . assuming you have a generic baseboard (likely) that puts out 580 BTUh at 180* average water temp you may very well be quite capable of heating the home with 150* average water temp at design conditions . With a mod con you could vary the water temp based o n outdoor temp and ever changing heat loss . For 70% of the season you may be able to heat with even lower temps than the mentioned 150 and be above 90% efficiency . there are mod cons that cost roughly the same as these cast iron options . Don't for a minute think that you will have a system efficiency that matches whats stated on the boiler , your house is not a lab and anyone who does not perform a heat loss does not have the ability to provide you with the AFUE stated on the rating plate , this I can damn near guarantee .

I may even be able to recommend a contractor in your area . Check out Parker Arntz , see how far they are from you .

Eastman

@ledzeplnrulz

Why can't you just fix the seized pump?

Rich_49

Just looked at the pictures . Circulator cannot have shaft vertical like it is . No wonder the pump is wasted . Why did the gas company tag as unsafe ? What explanation .

Jamie Hall

On the boiler size. Without a heat loss, one cannot possibly be sure what size should be used for a not water system such as you have -- but just to give you some idea, on a design day (-10 Fahrenheit) the place I take care of needs 22 BTUh per square foot of heated space -- which works out to about 25,000 BTUh for your house. This place has very little insulation and lots of infiltration...

As has been said, the advantage of a properly sized boiler is that it can be run at a lower temperature, which boosts the efficiency -- even with a non-condensing boiler (although they can't run as low). Would you save the additional cost of a new modulating/condensing (that's what mod-con means) boiler in fuel? Hard to say. Most likely you would. Even without that, a smaller boiler, better suited to the house, would be less expensive -- mod/con or not.

ledzeplnrulz

@Rich Parker-Arntz is approx 2.5hrs away. Consumer's tagged it "dangerous" because the pump was smoking when it seized and screeching a high pitch noise. According to the contractor that came today, he said "they'll tag anything "dangerous" if its malfunctioning"
@Eastman, replacing the pump would be $400, but the boiler is in sideways and you cannot access where to maintain it. Also the boiler is from '91 and has never been maintained nor the hot water tank from '94. I feel its best and more economical to just replace it all with up to date and not worry about the pump failing again, hell it may never fail but according to the contractor it was originally installed upside down. I don't want to have to do more work to the boiler/tank anytime soon.

Another question to you all. The chimney has a thimble on the opposite side. (the home is a duplex and the chimney is in the center of the home) Will this have to be addressed? i.e. remove thimble and re-block/new thimble? Please note that the grey duct tape has been on this thimble for as long as I can remember, over 20+ years. I just applied more to make sure it was sealed "for now" until this can be looked at. Are these normal? If I left it as is, aside from an eyesore, is it dangerous?

Eastman

Is the entire duplex 1100 square feet? --one heat source for the whole place?

ledzeplnrulz

@Eastman, yes sir. ~1,100 sqft total. 1 Floor w/ Attic.
I attached a building footprint and a picture of type of radiator. I know there are fins inside, pull the covers and remove the dust build up, which well help with efficiency.

ledzeplnrulz

Here are additional photos for further clarity. Hope these help.

Rich_49

@ledzeplnrulz

You should probably try to get a more in depth heat loss done by one of the contractors . Design day requirements will probably be right around or less than 40 BTUh sf or 44000 total .
The New Yorker boilers are here ,
http://newyorkerboiler.com/pdf/CGDRatings2.pdf
I would shoot for the 40 if the 30 just will not do for your contractors comfort level . The following are recommended upgrades that will give you a bit more SYSTEM performance than just a boiler swap .

Taco VT2218 circ , this will ensure a rather steady Delta T through your series loop and optimize output of each emitter , it also maintains the 20* Delta T most boilers are run at during their AFUE Testing .

Bradford White water heater . Ask about parts kit # 23947881-00 . This kit has an upgraded gas valve and a mixing device that connects right at the inlet and outlet of the heater . You can then store at 150 - 160* and gain some healthy benefits on health , usage .

Possibly a Taco SR501 ODR control that will enable the boiler to run down as low as 160* when 180 - 190* water is not needed . This helps a bit on the comfort level and will also save a bit of money in the long run . 2012 boiler codes also require this type of control when a boiler is less than 84 - 85% AFUE . Whether or not this is actually enforced where you are is an unknown to me.

These few things can make the syetem efficiency a bit better for the future . I would definitely go for the VT2218 and the parts kit for the Bradford . The SR501 ODR (fuel mizer) is not a deal breaker .

ledzeplnrulz

Pulled the trigger and signed the contract this morning. Next Friday, 11/20, we will be getting the New Yorker CG40 with the Taco VT2218 Circulator, a Bradford White 40 Gallon water heater, and a Pro IAQ T701 thermostat non-programmable with large display.

THIS TIME NEXT WEEK MY HOME WILL HAVE HEAT! YES!!

I'll keep this forum posted and let all of you know how things workout. Thanks everyone for your help.

Eastman

How is it working out ledzeplnrulz???

ledzeplnrulz

@Eastman, heat is working perfectly. So much better, no air in the lines, heat when you want it, every room is warm, no cold baseboards any longer. Ah, I tell ya. It's like night and day from the old system.

ledzeplnrulz

Here's a picture of the new setup.

Still waiting on inspection from the City. Hopefully no issues arise. The gentlemen that installed the new system were awesome and answered all my questions.