Hammering on newly installed boiler

j a_2

I say get the boiler repiped it's wrong and besides looks like crap.....you have been given some great advice here especially by K C.....If the guy can't do it correctly the first time then I am sorry time for him to get out of the steam business and don't come back till you get deknuckleheaded.....get some schooling....He should compensate you to have the work done professionally.....I question if a simple thing like the piping is that bad, then, best start looking at things like sizing,venting,wiring, safety's, and of course venting.....best of luck

ChrisJ

j a said:

I say get the boiler repiped it's wrong and besides looks like crap.....you have been given some great advice here especially by K C.....If the guy can't do it correctly the first time then I am sorry time for him to get out of the steam business and don't come back till you get deknuckleheaded.....get some schooling....He should compensate you to have the work done professionally.....I question if a simple thing like the piping is that bad, then, best start looking at things like sizing,venting,wiring, safety's, and of course venting.....best of luck

You're a year late my friend.
That thread died off in November of 2015.

j a_2

Whoops. Thanks for the tip...
Wonder how the op made out

nicholas bonham-carter

I believe Henry Royce (RR) said, "the quality will remain long after the price has been forgot",
My father-in-law from the north of England would say, "I'm not rich enough to afford cheap goods"-or work.
There is another quote here about the effects of cheap priced installs, and the disappointments which follow, but I can't find it.
http://www.azquotes.com/author/48176-Henry_Royce
NBC

arbalest

This is my own thread from two years ago and I want to thank every one and add some updates:

1) the contractor eventually repiped with a 2nd riser and a drop header. That was after I provided my own piping diagram (like in the installation manual), offered to pay for additional parts and... oh yeah, threatened to sue him.
2) I skimmed like crazy, made a wand for even more cleaning and have been using steam-master tablets.
3) the contractor was unable to remove a bushing that would allow me to install some new/proper bleeder valves on the return. This year I used a torch on the outer part combined with a freezing spray on the inner part and removed the bushing myself.
4) the problems initially described are solved. No constant make-up water and no terrible hammering. But when the heating cycle starts there is one or two hammer blows. On the main there is a reducing-T where one direction has about one foot of pipe and a cap (dead end). The contractor could not remove this either and I suspect that is the source of the one or two hammerings. Too bad it is in a location that would be hard to wrench out and I don't have a wrench that is big enough anyway.

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

I say get the boiler repiped it's wrong and besides looks like crap.....you have been given some great advice here especially by K C.....If the guy can't do it correctly the first time then I am sorry time for him to get out of the steam business and don't come back till you get deknuckleheaded.....get some schooling....He should compensate you to have the work done professionally.....I question if a simple thing like the piping is that bad, then, best start looking at things like sizing,venting,wiring, safety's, and of course venting.....best of luck

You're a year late my friend.
That thread died off in November of 2015.

Appears it did not die off my friend, the o p just posted an update...that's why some of us read thru old posts and try to get the final resolution, it's interesting and educating to know what the outcome was. Just saying

arbalest

To all - I had intended to post a final summary message way back then but I put it off until... I forgot completely. The beginning of this heating season and the loud KLANK! or two on some heating cycles actually reminded me to post the closing message.

I might take a picture of the "dead end" and make a separate post to confirm my suspicion that it is the source of the noise.

Fred

That Dead End should not cause any noise, unless it is pitched in the wrong direction and holding a little water. If it is, you will need to remove the foot of pipe and put a plug in the Tee or add a drip leg to the end of that pipe and tie it into a wet return. Option #1, with a plug would be the better option.

Steamhead

Post a pic.

arbalest

The piece with the flange in the riser off the drop header. The reducing T and the dead end was the old return. Now the return comes from the header itself per the installation diagram.

The installer disconnected the old return but says he could not remove the rest so he put a cap on it. I suppose that I could get a house jack under the last bit and push it up an inch. My guess (and I don't know about this stuff) is that even though it looks horizontal there is probably a bit of cooled condensate in that leg before a cycle -- and that is the source of the knock.

Fred

Stand back a little and give us a broader view of the piping. I don't see a drop header and can't quite make out where this is relative to the boiler. Also, be very careful about jacking anything up without understanding what that might do to the pitch of the pipe elsewhere.

arbalest

I meant that since I can't wrench that pipe I can put a jack under the part with the cap and maybe rotate a pitch into it.

I will have to move things around to get a better photo but if you look at the "before" photos from 2 years ago (in this same thread) you will get the idea.

MilanD

Jack and a 2x4 will work great, just make sure to support the nipple before that ell so you don't crack anything. You can wedge a 2x4 or 2x6 above the pipe against a 2x4 or 2x6 laying flat on the ceiling, and then put a 3 ft wrench on the nipple between the tee and the ell as insurance, or on the tee, if you want to rotate it from there.

Double D

Fred

Without seeing that piping from a couple different angles and how the risers come up out of the boiler and into the header, we simply aren't going to be much help. Looking at that picture,alone, I am doubtful that is the source of the hammer, especially since it is on a reducer Tee, which, by itself, would cause any water to run back into the larger pipe and the short stub doesn't look like it is pitched down where there would be a pocket of water at the end of that stub (but again the view from this one angle makes it impossible to tell for sure). A couple more simple pictures would be really helpful and may save you some time and effort trying to fix what may not be the problem.
Is this a parallel or counter flow system? If that horizontal pipe is the header, is the equalizer on the other end? Are there wet returns? If so, are they below the normal water line of the boiler? I see several other pipes there, where do they go and do they tie back into a wet return below the water line? Help us help you.

New England SteamWorks

I am with @Fred. That capped stub is not likely to be the source of the banging.

We need more pics.

arbalest

I will move things away from the area later so that I can get better pictures. I think some of the details can be seen in the "before" pictures I posted at the beginning of this thread.

@Fred I don't know the answer to your questions about parallel vs counterflow or what an equalizer is. The returns are above the boiler (at the ceiling) and they do go below the waterline before entering the boiler. I would say that leaving the boiler there are three branches off the main that go off into the ceiling and eventually to the 21 radiators in the building (3 apartments). It all comes back to the boiler on two returns. Each return has a single Groton #2 on it.

One thing that might be helpful to know is that when the installation was corrected and I did the skimming and wanding afterwards this hammering didn't happen. It started a month or two later. Again, it is one to three KLANGS at the start of the cycle.

BobC

On page 217 of the original LAOSH Dan devotes over a page to water hammer at the start of a steam cycle.

Go over every horizontal pipe with a level and a string to MAKE sure there are no dips in the piping.

Make sure there are no pipe reducers that might be trapping water.

Has a change in piping caused any dry returns to become wet?

Make sure the banging is not caused by a pipe expanding as stean comes down the line. Make sure there is a kittle room for pipes to move freely when going through flooring or joists. If any are tight put a piece of plastic milk jug between the pipe and the wood to see if that quiets things down.

Bob

Charlie from wmass

@arbalest if you have three Supply pipes leaving the boiler you should have 3 return pipes coming back. If you do not this means that one of the branches is a counterflow branch. It could also mean that the returns tied together above the waterline out at the far end

arbalest

Anything that happens above these pictures probably has not changed in about 100 years but the hammering is relatively new and started after the piping shown here was completed.

JUGHNE

I haven't read all this. But to me it seems that the 2 dry return drop pipes do not have much of a water seal. They usually go down lower almost to the floor.
That is the way it was on the old boiler most likely, but it may of had a higher water level.

Does anyone else think this could be a hammer problem?

Before you might change this it would be good to check the height of the HL in relation to the new water level.

Charlie from wmass

They go down low enough. I think the issues is all up in that horizontal 3 inch pipe that should have been split and brought down separately into the header

Fred

I agree, each of the mains on that top horizontal (silver) pipe should have been taken loose and tied individually into the new drop header. If you look at the next to last picture, it looks like that horizontal (silver pipe is pitched down to the left side and most likely allowing water to pool in that low spot. I can't see that there is a drip or any way for the water to drain from there. My guess is that is where the hammer occurs.

New England SteamWorks

2 years ago you said all the other contractors wanted to change a bunch of piping. Though not clear, it looks like you have 3 supplies, and if so, all three should have been brought down to the dropped header. Hard to tell from the pics. But maybe that's what the other contractors meant about changing a bunch of piping.

JUGHNE

I had a job with a header with a concentric coupling in it connecting to the undersized equalizer, all on the horizontal. The first 3' of steam main was actually counterflow before becoming parallel flow. (it was all welded BTY). I was anticipating water hammer there, the HO had already put so much money into the system. To change the cobbled header would have put the repairs over the top and he would have kept using his heat pump.
My idea was this: (get ready to throw the rocks) I thought I might drill a hole in the low spot of the header and tap in a nipple. Put a tee with the run on the nipple and a blow down port on the other side of the run for clean out if needed. The branch would then drop down and tie into the wet returns at the boiler.
Fortunately there was no hammer on start up, maybe because the system maxes at 8 oz.

I know sort of a red neck drip line, but it would confirm if that 3" is holding the water to cause the hammer. Just an idea.

arbalest

I don't recall the details of all of the original quotes but yes, some wanted to replace a lot of that pipe. I think the highest estimate was 50-100% more than the lowest estimate and they would have wanted me to get asbestos abatement done first.

For this year I can afford a DIY fix or a very minor professional fix but no more. I think I am going to learn to like the hammering sound... or at least learn to live with it for a while.

If it helps I can get close enough to the pipes at the start of some cycles in an attempt locating the hammering by ear or touch, if that is even possible.

Lesson learned here is to really do the upfront work to find a really good contractor!

arbalest

I just confirmed that the last nipple on the dead end is pitched in a way that could hold water. I'll see what I can do about that this weekend.

For the main, there are too many close pipes and short segments to get any sort of accurate read with a bubble level.

JUGHNE

Try a 3-4' level held on the bottom at the lowest point, center the bubble and then you can eyeball which way the slope is.

BobC

Houses sag as they age and that coupled with the installation of the new boiler has changed things. If you can stretch a string underneath a pipe, dips will become obvious and putting a string level on it will show the slope.

Bob

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @JUGHNE I think that 3" main is holding water and needs to be dripped into a wet return.

arbalest

@MilanD - so if I just focus the jack on the cap area of the last nipple and push then there is a chance of breaking something?

Maybe I ought to apply a torch to the reducing tee and the ell so help ensure that are the places more likely to move due to the torque. I am more worried about breaking something so I may not do anything here.

@EBEBRATT-Ed - if I could do that myself it would be the first option. I am trying to not spend any more on this and I imagine that a pro would want at least a few hundred dollars to do this.

MilanD

@arbalest , see this:

https://youtu.be/C0FKUl1htgc

Charlie from wmass

Why are is everybody telling this person to put a wrench on that pipe? Or a Jack? It is not the dead end pipe that is making the hammer noise. The steam cannot enter the data end quite quickly therefore it will not make a hammering noise. You are chasing a red herring. Get a ball of string with a line level that cost less than $4 and check the pitch of your pipes.

Charlie from wmass

If you really want to remove that dead end of pipe then search the wall for posts concerning cracking cast iron fittings there are several that explain fully how to remove a cast-iron fitting without 6 ft pipe wrenches. Then you can remove the cap that the other person installed and place it on the nipple that is left after you remove that elbow.

arbalest

@Charlie from wmass - I will do that but it is not something I can change anyway -- at least not now. Also, this is an old brick building without signs of settling (i.e., the pitch of the header hasn't changed recently. This stub is new and it is pitched the wrong way. I will read what I can find before I do anything.

@MilanD - Thanks for the link to the video. That is encouraging.

Fred

@Charlie from wmass , Not everybody is telling him to remove that dead end stub. I have said, more than once that that is not his problem. You can look at his pictures and tell the real issue is the pitch of that top 3" horizontal at the other end. That's where water is pooled. Ideally that horizontal pipe should be removed and the three m,ains dropped into the new header. If that is not financially possible, then the second best option is to figure out how to add a drip leg at that end of the horizontal. The third option is for the OP/Tenants to learn to live with the banging.
In any case, I have offered up the help that I can offer and the OP can spend his time dealing with the stub, if that will take his mind off of actually fixing the problem, at least until the first time he fires the boiler back up, afterwards.

arbalest

The main "looks like" it is lower on the left and I even thought so at one point. The illusion is caused by the return below it, which is pitched more severely.

But using a level I can confirm that it is slightly lower on the right (the stub used to tie into the return side. And the last section of the stub is pitched downward into the dead-end. I was able to get that cap off today (it was put on during the recent install) and about a teaspoon of water came out. During the start up of two cycles, that have happened since, there has been no hammering.

I expect that the hammering will return so I will look into getting that stub tied into the return.

JUGHNE

Would it be easier to just remove the stub?

arbalest

It would be better, but not easier.

The installer of the new boiler was unable to do it so he put a cap on it. I don't think he cared about it or used every trick he had but they did put a giant wrench on it and had strong guys putting some effort into it.

I think I could loosen it or at least pitch it upward with a jack but don't want to risk damage that would force my hand until I can afford to pay for the worst case outcome.

It does look straight forward enough to remove the cap and extend the stub into the return side of the system. My preference would be to have the optimal configuration that has been suggested - the branches off the main all be tied to the header.

If it starts hammering again real soon I might put an elbow and valve on it to drain it once in a while. If there are long durations between hammering I will just take the cap off once in a while. I do hate the idea of these red-neck solutions to a new full priced installation.

I can hardly believe that I once had a boiler that gave me no problems but I worried about its age so I did my homework and replaced it at a cost over $10k. Now two years later it is still a cause of wasted time, effort and worry. My ONLY point in saying this is the hope that this thread will save someone else this sort of annoyance.

Fred

You know you might try insulating that near boiler piping. It is very possible that a lot of steam is condensing in both the drop header and the 3" horizontal up top and enough water is running back down the riser between the drop header and that horizontal to cause some hammer.