Ever loose a steam boiler to freeze up?

sonofaplumber

At my farther's house we lost two last winter. The first was the boiler that kept me warm my entire childhood, 1979 peerless 5 section.

We had a serious cold snap up here last winter in the negative teens for two weeks or so, and that was when my dad called and said he made a serious mistake. Using the wood stove in the upstairs for warmth, he had let the pipes freeze in the basement and he needed my help with the boiler. Even the water pipe coming in from the main had froze. Frost was growing on the granite walls down there. The sight glass had broken and the lower sight valve was chocked with ice. so was the blow down valve. I did what I had to do and bypassed the lwco to thaw the boiler. Soon after discovered every section in our old family friend had cracked.

In a near panic I picked up a used utica 3 section boiler very cheap and that is when I came to this site for help. After spending a couple days at work reading about steam systems and near boiler piping, I went to Dad's and piped in the new boiler. 2 days later I filled it to the sight glass, fired it, blew down, and skimmed. We had heat and the burst pipes were thawing. I stayed in the basement for one heat cycle then headed home (it was 1 AM by then).

The next day I returned to another frozen solid boiler with all three sections severely cracked and a hole big enough to fit my head in at the back.

I hate to say it but this week I am putting in the warm air furnace I just removed from my house, for his source of heat moving forward. Not removing any of the old mains in hopes of bringing it back to life some day. Sad story I know but I've learned a ton from it. I just never thought a non-pressurized, vented system could break due to a freeze-up. I guess ice does expand at an alarming rate.

ChrisJ

How exactly will this stop water pipes and drain pipes from freezing?

sonofaplumber

Chris,

The 200 ft of uninsulated mains with water pipes intentionally run close always did a great job of keeping the basement way above freezing.

The crazy stack temperature from the old boiler being about 3x overfired (3.5 gpm) was a big help, too.

ChrisJ

No no, I mean, how will installing a used old forced hot air furnace that won't be used anyway stop his water pipes and drain pipes from freezing?

KC_Jones

I'm not trying to beat you up here, but you didn't fire the boiler in freezing or below freezing temperatures and you are surprised the boiler froze? And now you aren't replacing the boiler because it's the fault of the steam system? This is quite confusing.

Jamie Hall

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Count it as a rather expensive learning lesson, however.

And a caution to anyone else who might be tempted... if you are going to turn off the boiler, and the outside air temperatures are below freezing or are expected to be, drain the system! It will freeze, and when it freezes, it will burst.

In your situation, I would also assume that every pipe below the water line of the boiler has frozen and burst, and every water pipe has frozen and either has burst or will burst shortly. Don't fool around; replace them all.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Count it as a rather expensive learning lesson, however.

And a caution to anyone else who might be tempted... if you are going to turn off the boiler, and the outside air temperatures are below freezing or are expected to be, drain the system! It will freeze, and when it freezes, it will burst.

In your situation, I would also assume that every pipe below the water line of the boiler has frozen and burst, and every water pipe has frozen and either has burst or will burst shortly. Don't fool around; replace them all.

That depends Jamie.
Copper and steel pipes can freeze with zero harm done to them. It depends on many things, but most often a pipe bursts because of pressure built up from the ice expanding and a valve being closed and the split often isn't near the ice it self.

If pipes show no signs of stress I'd leave them alone.

sonofaplumber

To be old and wise you have to be young and dumb, I guess?

I know it is a confusing story as a result of the hectic situation, I apologize.

I'm not replacing the boiler again due to his financial situation and inability to maintain or monitor the condition of his home including the steam system. Its too much of a risk. He can't even make it to the basement to do blow downs, check water level, etc. Warm air is more practical right now. I hope to own the house again someday and reinstall a upkeep and nice steam machine.

I replaced the boiler in the frozen up basement because I felt It was the best choice at the time. We love steam and mourned at the loss of our peerless relic.

The forced air furnace will have dedicated ducts for the cellar space and WILL be used (I'm not processing his firewood this year like I always have so he will depend strictly on the heating system.) Taking lots of other winterizing steps for the space as well.

Obviously I see now boiler failure due to freezing conditions is fairly common based on your comments.

sonofaplumber

Was only sharing as one of my first major experiences with steam, as the reason I came to this site, and of course to stir up conversation that will help me further my steam education.

For example it could have been a leak in the system and the boiler hitting low water cut out that caused it, not the lack of a call for heat. It was cold in the house, very cold even with the wood stove going. The thermostat is well away from that heat source at the opposite end of the house.

Also could have been a failed lwco that allowed the boiler to dry fire and crack, I mean, it has a major hole directly behind the combustion chamber you would normally see in a dry fire condition..so did the last one.

The wet returns were frozen solid and I had condensate backed up to one of the main vents on the first cycle. Maybe it built pressure and locked out on the pressuretrol? but that would only cause a short cycle right? It does have an equalizer as you can see in the pic.

Fred

A freezing boiler is not a common occurance when it is used to heat the house during the winter. If your dad could have used the wood stoves to augment the boiler, say in a room where he stays and wants that room at 72 when the rest of the house is at 65, rather than replacing it, freezing would not have happened. I get the need to do something, in the interim, that works a little better for him, given his health/limited mobility but someone will have to check on him frequently. If he uses the wood stoves because he can't afford the utility bill, he likely will find a way not to use the forced air furnace either.

ChrisJ

Wood stoves can also kill if not used properly and maintained. Please keep an eye on things for him.

sonofaplumber

Thanks for your concern Chris & Fred. I do check on him often and he has a state case worker that checks on him often as well. Alcohol will get him before CO poisioning does I have a feeling Its really unfortunate, he was a pipe fitter for 28yrs and built steam boilers and turbines bigger than than the whole house!

The reduction in nozzle size should make the utility bill shrink along with the price of oil today being half what it was

A 225K? boiler for a 350ft radiation load As a kid I remember water hammer haunted my dreams.

vaporvac

Sounds like wood is out for the near future. So are you cutting holes to put in ducting or does he already have a/c? If so that sounds like a lot of work and money. Modern w-b boilers (and maybe atmospherics?) use a probe LWCO, so there's no blow-down necessary except as a safety check.
Anything is possible in this situation; perhaps the used replacement boiler was bad from the get-go. I've never heard of a steam boiler bursting and I'd think there'd be plenty of interior space for the water to expand. n fact , this is often given as an advantage of steam. I can totally see where the LWCO and small pipes in the wet return might freeze. I had mine decommissioned for a season, but I never had ice on the walls!
I guess one can just be happy he didn't have HW rads freeze!
I feel so bad for your Dad...tell him not to beat himself up. Just happy you're there to help out.

sonofaplumber

The wet returns did survive the two freeze ups. The only thing to consistently fail were the domestic pipes (all replaced with pex now) and the boiler sections.

sonofaplumber

vaporvac said:

Sounds like wood is out for the near future. So are you cutting holes to put in ducting or does he already have a/c? If so that sounds like a lot of work and money. Modern w-b boilers (and maybe atmospherics?) use a probe LWCO, so there's no blow-down necessary except as a safety check.
Anything is possible in this situation; perhaps the used replacement boiler was bad from the get-go. I've never heard of a steam boiler bursting and I'd think there'd be plenty of interior space for the water to expand. n fact , this is often given as an advantage of steam. I can totally see where the LWCO and small pipes in the wet return might freeze. I had mine decommissioned for a season, but I never had ice on the walls!
I guess one can just be happy he didn't have HW rads freeze!
I feel so bad for your Dad...tell him not to beat himself up. Just happy you're there to help out.

These were exactly my thoughts. How would an open bowl full of water burst? the 04' utica sfe-3100s has a float-type lwco. It could have frozen and allowed a dry fire situation? the odd thing is the cracks are all on the bottom of the sections and the one large hole at the back.

Fresh install of the air ducts. Not getting fancy with it. No need for A/C here in Maine really but mini split heat pumps are increasingly commmon.

vaporvac

Where in Me are you? My Dad lives there, too.

sonofaplumber

vaporvac said:

Where in Me are you? My Dad lives there, too.

In the Bangor area. I live in Orrington, but the old homestead is in Brewer.

sonofaplumber

Very possible that the frozen wet returns let loose all at once due to the building return pressure/ hot condensate, and flooded the 212*f boiler with ice cold water causing the destruction too right?!?

My dad never mentioned any loud explosions..

ChrisJ

sonofaplumber said:

The wet returns did survive the two freeze ups. The only thing to consistently fail were the domestic pipes (all replaced with pex now) and the boiler sections.

Pex a I hope?
Problem is I believe even pex a can fail if a fitting freezes but you've got a far better chance of no damage than copper. Pex b and c cannot tolerate freezing.

Fred

Most likely he may have tried to fire the boiler up while it was frozen. Cast iron doesn't do well when heat is applied while it is freezing cold. I've cracked a couple cast iron skillets by taking them out of the frig and putting them right in a preheated oven. Take care of your Dad. We don't have our loved ones that long. As far as the alcohol goes, I always tell my friends God gives each of us a cross to bear. Some are more obvious than others but we each have one.

sonofaplumber

Very true. Bad situation all together. You keep your baking pans in the frig? haha. I have radiant under my cupboards to preheat and prevent thermal shock

There's a (almost) new peerless LP forced HW boiler (PSCII-03??) in the crate in my garage, an option I thought about, piping it to a handful of the rads with 1/2" pex and antifreeze the whole system.

It was removed after a few hours of use due to a power vent recall. I ended up with it and an updated blower from the distributors crush/destroy pile after they got credit from PB.

In the end I decided a furnace would be less work.

Chris its pex-a with very minimal fittings. You should see the mess of 100 y.o. copper & brass it replaced.