Leak above water line

Oakvu

Gradually have been losing water and determined I have a leak above the water line. Losing water to steam escaping. Picture of top of boiler attached. Any options other than replacement of the boiler?

Jamie Hall

On very rare occasions it may be cost effective to just replace the section with the leak. Very. Rare.

And leaks do not, usually, come in ones... or get smaller...

STEAM DOCTOR

Boiler replacement is best option. Especially since heating season has not really started yet. Last thing that you need is to do some sort of repair and have the repair give way afternoon of December 31st(New years is a three day weekend this year).

Oakvu

Original boiler installed was a new yorker in 1995. Replaced boiler block in 2004 on warranty, new yorker. Another leak in 2015. So have had 21 years for cost of one boiler. Is this satisfactory? When I replace boiler, what's the recommendation?

KC_Jones

It sounds like you have some kind of issue. A boiler should go 20-30 years easily. How much water does it use? What is the water quality where you live? Something is causing premature failure of those boilers. What does the piping look like? There could be many things that cause the failure and it's either bad/poor/no maintenance OR something wrong with your system. Either way you should try and determine the problem before spending a bunch of money on a new boiler. The boiler I just replaced last year was 32 years old and it in all honesty didn't get the best maintenance during it's life. Results may vary, but in my honest opinion you have something wrong somewhere. Where do you live we might be able to recommend a good steam man in your area.

Oakvu

I live in central Pennsylvania. 1st boiler failed due to leak elsewhere in the system and the low water cut off kept feeding. These past 10 years I manually added water and thought I maintained well. I'll add some pics of the near boiler piping.

Oakvu

Here are some pics

Oakvu

One more pic

KC_Jones

It does depend on boiler size, but you really don't want to be using more than about 2-3 gallons per year excluding blowdowns of the LWCO. Again the boiler/system size has some influence on this. Do you have a water meter on the feeder to monitor how much you are using? If not it's a good addition on a new install strictly to track the usage. I seem to recall people on here with huge systems only using a couple gallons during an entire heating season. Leaks aren't always dripping, steam leaks can cause just as much issues as actual water leaks (steam is invisible so you won't necessarily "see" anything).

KC_Jones

BTW I live in south central PA about 15 minutes north of the MD/PA line. The closest steam man I know of is @Steamhead who works out of Towson, MD, but he does travel. He should see that tag and might chime in here. If you post a little more specifically where you are and he could comment if he goes that far.

Oakvu

I do not have a water meter on the current system. Started adding water last heating season and knew I had a leak. Confirmed this summer as I heat my water and still was losing water. Leak on top this time.

How's the piping look? Ok?

Boiler size pic attached.

KC_Jones

I will say that isn't the worst piping we have seen on here, but it isn't the best either. I can't tell the pipe size in the picture, but it supposed to be 3" piping for the riser and header. When this boiler was installed did they measure all the radiators to size it? Have you ever done an EDR calculation to see if the boiler is the proper size. That is a fairly large boiler and it's pretty common for them to be oversized that is the only reason I ask.

Oakvu

Back in 1995, the contractor did walk thru the house and measured all the radiators. The boiler prior to the '95 was a beast. The beast ran on oil. Originally coal at one time. I haven't done the EDR calc.

Oakvu

I live in huntingdon pa. It's probably 3 hours from towson. Hopefully not too far from @steamhead

Steamhead

Thanks all for the recommendation. Not sure we could get to this one though, we're booked up as far as Christmas. I suppose we shouldn't complain, since we have plenty of work.....

Oakvu, I sure hope your present boiler is oversized. Because if it is, you might be able to go with the largest Burnham MegaSteam which is rated 629 square feet EDR. The MegaSteam is hands down the best residential steamer out there, too bad Burnham gets apoplectic when we mention putting power gas burners on it (which reduces their sales too).

That New Yorker is basically a warmed-over Burnham V8 boiler. Like most such boilers, it uses vertical flues with pins to capture the heat, which are difficult to clean thoroughly so a lot of guys don't try. The MegaSteam has the much better three-pass design that's a lot easier to maintain, besides being more efficient.

Whatever boiler you get, you will need to look over the entire system to find any leaks that exist. Leaks from the system will shorten the boiler's life, since the fresh water that needs to be added is much more corrosive than water that's been boiled and condensed. These leaks can come from loose packing nuts, bad air vents, etc. The usual tell-tale sign of leaks is rotting out above the boiler's waterline, as on yours.

Here are a couple threads of MegaSteam 629 installations. The second one resulted in a 1/3 drop in oil consumption (I don't have figures for the first one):

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/144144/latest-megasteam

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/148292/megasteaming-by-the-river

KC_Jones

Steamhead knows his stuff the good ones are always very busy665. As far as a contractor, another option that has been recommended is when you find ones to do estimates ask for pictures of recent steam boiler installs and post them here, we will be able to tell in about 10 seconds if they know what they are doing. There are many subtleties on steam systems and getting it right takes know how. If they get it wrong you end up paying for it for the life of the boiler or until you can get someone who knows how to fix it. We see it tons on this site. We are happy to help in any way we can. Unfortunately I found out PA is a bit of a dead zone for steam, I couldn't find anyone so I ended up educating myself and installing my own boiler. I wish you best of luck with this and if there is anything we can help with say the word.

Oakvu

In preparation of going with a replacement boiler, I did the EDR calculation. It is 556.2. My current boiler is sized at 704 (see above pic). Now does the current boiler rating of 704 include a pick up factor of 1.33? If it does include the pickup factor, does this make my current boiler oversized by 26.6%?

If the pickup factor is actually higher (say 1.5), then is the boiler sized correctly?

BobC

The sq ft rating on the boiler does not include the pickup factor. If the current boiler is rated at 704 sq ft of steam it can produce 936 sq ft of steam.

A lot of people think the 33% pickup factor is too high, why do you think you might need a 50% pickup factor?

Bob

KC_Jones

@BobC did you typo? It DOES include the pickup factor for the reason you stated. It can support 704 sq ft of radiation and the associated piping with the built in pickup factor. To the OP I can almost guarantee you don't need a pickup factor of 50% and as BobC said many of us are questioning the 33%. Your current boiler is oversized for sure. Are you staying with oil? If so the Burnham megasteam is the best oil fired steam boiler out there. Now you need to find a good contractor, as I stated before get pictures of their steam installs and post the pics here (remove any reference to their company) and we can tell you if they know what they are doing.

Oakvu

I have no other options than staying with oil. Nat Gas is not available.

So based on my EDR of 556, the MegaSteam 629 (rated for 629 sq ft steam) would be the best boiler to purchase? The next step down is only rated for 513.

I guess I question the oversize of my boiler as I have no symptoms, ie short-cycling, water-hammer, etc.

Also, I felt my pickup factor may be higher due to the length of the mains. I have 3 and the 1 basically goes around the entire basement.

Bio

I would get the one rated at 629 Sqft, a competent installer would be able to down fire it to meet your EDR, make them use their boiler piping kit for best results, the Crown FSZ (under burnham's umbrella)has the same boiler with a diffrent jacket and may be a bit less expensive, also dont forget to upgrade your main vents

PS-just realized the megasteam offers 10yrs warranty on the heat exchanger and the crown offers 12 yrs!

https://file.ac/mK-fR5nVO5s/MegaSteam Product Data Sheet.pdf

http://www.crownboiler.com/documents/freeport_2_steam_literature.pdf

http://www.crownboiler.com/documents/freeport_2_steam_near_boiler_piping_schematic.pdf

KC_Jones

Oakvu said:

Also, I felt my pickup factor may be higher due to the length of the mains. I have 3 and the 1 basically goes around the entire basement.

Ok let's break it down like this. You have 556 sq ft of radiation with 33% that would be an additional 183 sq ft. That works out to roughly 294 ft of 2" pipe with zero insulation on it. Do you think you have more than that amount of pipe? Now if you insulate that piping this goes down since the losses are decreased, dramatically. I should also add do you factually know that your current burner is being fired to support 704 sq ft? Some oil burners can be downfired to more closely match the radiation in the house. Know what I mean? That being said if it was me I would probably go for the 513 which still gives roughly 26% pickup factor, but it's your house and I can't make those decisions for you. If you make sure all that piping is well insulated and vent the system properly and get PROPER near boiler piping it wouldn't be an issue. The bigger boiler is just going to burn more fuel. BTW most of us have mains that go around the basement that isn't anything unusual for steam.

KC_Jones

I would also add that since the boiler failed prematurely it really sounds like you have some kind of leak somewhere. If you have a leak on the steam side this could be contributing to why you don't see any of the classic oversized symptoms. Remember steam is invisible so finding those leaks can be tough. A cold mirror can help.

Oakvu

Confused on the calculation. Can you explain how the 513 gives roughly a 26% pick up factor. If I have EDR of 556 and the Boiler is rated for 513 (already including the pick up factor), wouldn't the pick up factor be ((556-513)/513)= 8.38% if the 513 is the properly sized boiler?

KC_Jones

Total boiler output is 513 PLUS the pickup of .33 so the total output after subtracting efficiency is 682. So in your situation 682-556=126 126/556=23% (sorry typo 6 instead of 3).

Oakvu

Earlier, I thought you said that the Boiler Rating already included the pick up factor? I thought that meant that the actual number had the .33 included in the calculation, ie a 513 rating would match a EDR of 385 + 128 (33% pick up).

So what you are saying is that the Boiler Rating is strictly for the radiation, not the piping. And if I have an EDR of 556 and go with a 513, and I'd be ok if my pick factor is actually 23%.

KC_Jones

Yes if it includes the pickup you don't need to calculate it, it's already been done for you. In your case I am suggesting you only use a 23% pickup factor. Like I said it's your house and your decision, just suggesting what I would do if it was me. You could run a heat loss on the house and compare that to the radiation you have which would give an even better picture of things.

vaporvac

When @KC_Jones says it's included, he means the manufacturers account for it so you don't need to add anything to your edr measurements. Just compare it to the boiler plate edr rating and you'll be fine.
However, if you have good venting, good near-boiler -piping and well-insulated pipes you can probably go a bit smaller. The pick-up factor is mainly relevant on a cold start coming from a set-back. The the piping factor is more a function of your insulation, so that's yet another (of many) reason to insulate the pipes. A well insulated house will also allow you to go a bit smaller if the other factors are met as your total heat loss is less.
There's been a lot of discussion on this site recently on how much pick-up factor one really needs. I consider it "advanced", so don't sweat it. Colleen

SWEI

If your EDR exactly matches the boiler rating, you have 33% for piping and pick-up.

KC_Jones

To the OP I am not trying to cause confusion so if I have my apologies. Some of these concepts are very case specific to individual houses. We have at least one user running 10% pickup factor and has zero issues. The reason I mention a heat loss is some of us are theorizing that if you have much more radiation than the building needs then in theory you never fill the radiators completely. If that's the case then why size the boiler to radiation you will never use? As Colleen said it is a bit advanced, but I like presenting all sides of a topic. If you go with the bigger boiler it will work no questions. If you go with the smaller in all likelihood it will work also, you will just need to make sure everything is right. In my opinion the second part of that should go without saying. You want it right no matter which size boiler. I am on the other end of the spectrum my radiation closely matches the calculated heat loss so I can see my radiators fill completely on a fairly regular basis, especially last February.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

@BobC did you typo? It DOES include the pickup factor for the reason you stated. It can support 704 sq ft of radiation and the associated piping with the built in pickup factor. To the OP I can almost guarantee you don't need a pickup factor of 50% and as BobC said many of us are questioning the 33%. Your current boiler is oversized for sure. Are you staying with oil? If so the Burnham megasteam is the best oil fired steam boiler out there. Now you need to find a good contractor, as I stated before get pictures of their steam installs and post the pics here (remove any reference to their company) and we can tell you if they know what they are doing.

@KC , I think you may have made a typo. The 33% pick up factor is on top of the rated 704 Sq. Ft. of steam. This boiler can support 704 Sq. Ft. of radiation and has another 33% capacity to handle the piping, header, etc. This Poster needs to look for a boiler that is rated at somewhere around his calculated EDR, maybe a little less if he wants to reduce the amount of Pick-up factor

KC_Jones

If the pickup is included that means the manufacturer already figured it in or "included" it. If it's not included that means it isn't there in any way shape or form because it's NOT included. To include something means it's there if they didn't include it in any way they would just report the net output after efficiency and leave it up to you to figure it out.

Fred

I think most of us think of "included" to mean it is included in the SQ. Ft. rating, when we're talking about Sq. Ft. of EDR. It is included in the boiler but it is not included in the published EDR #.