Heating with return condensate

Stangob

Hi all. I currently have my basement walls open and was thinking about replacing my condensate lines just as a preventive step since when I had the boiler replaced it wasn't. Currently the pipe starts 28 inches off the floor and wraps around the basement joining the boiler piping 17 inches off the floor. My question after reading this post (http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/155613/use-the-overhead-main-in-a-basement-instead-of-a-radiatorading)
is can I pipe in a baseboard radiator to help heat the space without affecting the steam system. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for the help.

SWEI

How big is the condensate line? Most baseboard has fairly small diameter connections.

Jamie Hall

The answer is that yes you can do it. SWEI is quite right in worrying a little about the pipe size. More significantly, there isn't -- or certainly shouldn't be -- that much heat in the condensate line. It is always surprising how low the flow is in the condensate returns -- we tend to forget that expansion to steam!

Stangob

The pipe size is 1 inch. This summer thanks to reading the great advice on the forum I removed a 10 foot 2 inch diameter basemoard element (if that's what it is called) from the steam main. I then wrapped the mains in fiberglass insulation. Since I was planning to replace the returns I thought I would ask to see if there was a way to get some heat back into the room.

j a_2

Me personally have never done that in 35 years of working on steam systems in the Boston area..But i have been to loads of properties where it was previously done...it wasn't baseboard it was large colum radiators...with inch and a half fittings...So, me I can't say one way or the other...

Robert O'Connor_12

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/how-to-run-a-hot-water-zone-off-a-steam-boiler/

STEAM DOCTOR

Do it right the first time. Follow ROC's link. As one of my customer's told me recently (quoting his grandfather) "I am not rich enough to buy things cheaply".

j a_2

I think hes referring to just having the condensate return thru a couple of radiators not running a wet loop....

Stangob

I was actually just asking about running condensate through a radiator for a little warmth but knowing that I can actually do what "ROC" suggest is the best info I could have hoped for. That's why I love this site. I just skimmed the article but I think the best news is that I can achieve this with the current btu capacity in my IN5. I agree with steam doctor that I want to do this right the first time. Unfortunately because of the complexity I will probably have to wait for a little while. I read on the board that steam guys are busy this time of the year. Untill then I'm working on the age old question of getting heat to the farthest radiator.

j a_2

Well in the Brookline area of Boston there was a bunch of dead men that did it all the time

Stangob

Hi JA to what are you referring? The radiator/baseboard piped into the return condensate line or the hot water loop as "Roc" recommended

SWEI

What temperature is the condensate? How well insulated are the lines above the basement that feed it?

The Slant/Fin S-540 has a 1-1/4" steel schedule 40 core and will provide usable output even with 110°F water.

Stangob

SWEI. I never actually measured the temperature of the condensate but that would make a lot of sense. Lol. The steam mains are insulated with one inch fiberglass insulation. I can try to pipe in a tee and a valve to get a sample to check the temperature and get back to you.

SWEI

The pumped condensate loop is definitely going to provide the best performance, but it comes with a fair amount of cost and complexity, including a little bit of routine pump maintenance and some additional diligence keeping the boiler blown down.

A series emitter on the condensate line will cost less, has no moving parts, and requires no routine maintenance (other than perhaps vacuuming the fins if they need it.) It won't provide large amounts of heat, but it might provide "enough." It's worth taking the time to investigate IMO.

j a_2

Simple, they piped the returns as normally one would...and in line with the returns they put some rads in....no pump no checks no nothing...simple

Jamie Hall

j a said:

Simple, they piped the returns as normally one would...and in line with the returns they put some rads in....no pump no checks no nothing...simple

And why not? It may not be toasty warm, but it's simple and it works!

j a_2

Exactly my point... Jamie...trouble was pure lack of maintenance on the system.... And the bufoons who fooled the owners telling b s

Stangob

I agree JA, Jamie; simple does works best. I'm not expecting an 80 degree room but even a little will go a long way. I will indeed go ahead and do this project. But I will try and find out the water temp and post back to see if you guys think it's worth doing it.
Another question is I am assuming I shoud go with copper piping? Also the current set up is the pipe from the steam main drops and turns 29 inches from the floor and then slopes around the basement before joining boiler piping. The water line as measured in the sight glass of the boiler is also 29 inches off the floor. Should I stick with that drop or drop the start of the new condensate return lower.

Jamie Hall

Copper is fine. But I'd start the condensate return line lower. I'm going to bet that at some point the boiler was replaced and they didn't match the old waterline.

j a_2

Yup I was thinking the same...I would if I was inclined to do as op is inclined,would use black iron fin tubed sized in diameter big enough to handle the return...And definitely put it in line as a wet return...Hay ya got nothing to loose, as I see it

Stangob

You are right Jamie the boiler was changed about 3 years ago when we purchased the house and switched to gas. Unfortunately I did not know about the forum then. The new boiler is a Burnham IN5. Some questions then;
How low should the drop for the condensate line be? I had planned on maintaining the 1 inch diameter because that was what was there. Should I change to another pipe size? What size inline should I put in? Swei mentioned 1 1/4 inch diameter. I'm assuming the 10 foot, 2 inch diameter I removed from the mains is to big. Lol.

Jamie Hall

Well, let's see here. On the radiation -- I'd go with SWEI's inch and a quarter. Good stuff. But you could use eccentric reducers at both ends to hook up to 1" copper, if you liked and it worked better. I would drop the whole wet return so that it had just enough slope to drain back to the boiler when you wanted to empty it for some reason. Say a quarter to a half inch per foot. So long as the boiler is running, you'll get plenty of flow through it, since the driving head will be the water standing in that vertical.

j a_2

. The middle one is. 1 1/4 black iron

Mark N

How will there be enough flow through this to heat the space? Isn't the output of the baseboard based upon how many gallons flows through per minute?

j a_2

He has steam...and just trying to get what he can out of it...steam has no flow rates...

Mark N

He got what he could out of the steam when it condensed back into water in the rads. The flow of the condensate back to the boiler is quite minimal, so therefore the heat output will be quite minimal. Let the OP report back his results. I know from personal experience that a pumped hot water loop off a steam boiler can be quite effective if done properly.

Stangob

I now know that it is possible to get a "real" hot water loop with steam thanks to this thread. I am very intrested in this idea because the room I'm trying to heat is something I envision as a playroom for my boys when they get older. The cost factor at this time is prohibitive simply because I did not plan on it. However I think it is something I would want to get done next summer. Right now I was just kicking around the idea to keep the room manageable. I did pick up some fittings from the big box store and plan to pipe them in do get some idea of water temp. I will report back and if the wisdom of the board says it's worthless then I will just repipe my return and wait till next summer