new to steam!! please help me out

ChrisJ

budpln said:

Do you think I'm losing steam?? Haha

Depends.
Is it 30F out, or -20F out?
If -20F probably not. If 30F out, without a doubt.

budpln

It's 30 out

BobC

Look at the bright side, the chimney should be nice and clean now.

Bob

budpln

Could eat off it haha

Bio

budpln said:

Yes he did and he said that will all be replaced! He doesn't like the mega steam he believes it will not last and everything I've read has said to let your installer install what he likes and is familiar with so!

He believes the megasteam will not last?
Megasteam is the best boiler, is a three pass boiler, with the best warranty (10 years on the heat exchanger)
That statement is not a good sign, good luck

Eastman

Isn't the Utica too big? Is natural gas available?

Fred

I think I'd do a little more checking and maybe even find a different contractor. If others are getting the rebates and you aren't is the contractor taking it? Also anyone that says the Megasteam isn't as good as the Utica is cause for pause, in my mind.

vaporvac

@budpln , could you please post some pics of this installer work. A five year warranty doesn't mean much if you have to use it and may not even know if the install is good. A good install means better steam quality, thus less $ for heating.

It's worrying that he disses the MST boiler. The three-pass design is nothing new... it's been used industrially for 50-100+ yrs industrially. What's newer is it's use in a residential application. This boiler is not only more efficient by design, it has MUCH greater longevity and is the only one warrantied against water corrosion which is the most common reason for boiler failure. It's also easier to keep clean and was specifically made for steam only. It also comes with a factory dropped-header, if I recall correctly, which is the best piping arrangement.

You only have one chance here. MY Slantfin Intrepid is getting numbers over 86% EFF and I have a gas conversion burner which typically is not as efficient as oil. Yet, I'd still get the MST if it were available for gas for the above reasons.
I respect your opinion of this installer, but we've seen here on The Wall, it's hard to judge without pictures.
Caveat: I'm a HO like yourself, but researched the heck out of boiler choices. My Dad worked with 3-pass in Marine apps and explained their superiority to me.

Steamowner

Fred said:

I think I'd do a little more checking and maybe even find a different contractor. If others are getting the rebates and you aren't is the contractor taking it? Also anyone that says the Megasteam isn't as good as the Utica is cause for pause, in my mind.

I'm the other guy who got the rebate and as I said, the only reason I got it was due the to the early boiler replacement program which has expired, ie my old boiler was over 30 years old.
I believe the contractor this user is hiring is off of the "find a contractor" search and a guy I recommended to him via private message. I think some people are to quick to talk poorly about installers for whom they have limited information about.

I don't think it's uncommon for Steam guys to only install one brand. They have relationships with the suppliers, trust them to take care of any issues, etc.. One could make the argument that these relationships are more important than selecting the 'best' boiler.
The Megasteam sounds like a great boiler but I've read on here numerous times that the quality of the install is most important.
Just my two cents.

ChrisJ

Rule #1 find a guy that actually knows steam. not claims he does, but actually knows it and is good at it. If you have any doubts ask on here about what he plans to do.

Rule #2, use whatever brand boiler he likes. They're all about equal but many here feel the Megasteam is a notch above the rest. Worse, absolutely not.

j a_2

Yes, they are all about the same..and yes it's more important that your installer has a solid background in the world of steam...Seriously, most anyone can install a steam boiler, crap some companies even give you a pre cut pipe kit..Its very important that a full system survey be done, in order to size it correctly and repair any issues...homes with steam are old,and tend to sag,taking the steam pipes with them,then of course you factor in the renovations done by the handy Andys of the world...Its impossible for a contractor in Mass to steal your rebate...Tell us your installers background and show us a pic of his past installs...What did he say about the chimney,and the make up air, and in Mass. A permit is required

budpln

this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! he hasent come to check anything. he just gave me the quote and said that will cover everything. he has not been to my house.

Fred

budpln said:

this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! he hasent come to check anything. he just gave me the quote and said that will cover everything. he has not been to my house.

Like I said above: I think I'd do a little more checking and maybe even find a different contractor. If others are getting the rebates and you aren't is the contractor taking it? Also anyone that says the Megasteam isn't as good as the Utica is cause for pause, in my mind.
I don't care what anyone thinks or how highly reccommended this guy comes, This is not the way to get a good installation, regardless of brand!

Eastman

Are you sure natural gas isn't availible????? ??

Do you understand why you would want it?

j a_2

The boiler does not meet the required AFUE for the early boiler replacement.So he does not qualify, dam rules

budpln

It's on my street but national grid can't garuntee having it hooked up before winter plus it 500 and I just can't afford it right now

Eastman

@j a
I'm lost. What you talking about?

budpln

Gas.

Eastman

Is the rebate a lot? I find it hard to believe that would drive the fuel choice. Isn't there smaller gas boilers than oil boilers? I would also think ditching the oil tank would significantly increase the resale value of the house.

j a_2

Are you talking about the 30 year early boiler replacement program. .?

Eastman

@j a

What is this rebate program you speak of?

j a_2

Mass. Save early boiler replacement program, it's online but time may be running out,if not already...

Eastman

(Re-reading discussion.... can see I missed a couple posts related to this rebate. Apologies. Googling rebate program. Thinking...) Mehhh. It doesn't seem like much. The 0% loan sounds intriguing though.

Eastman

Did you look into the 0% loan budpin?

budpln

Yes already applied with the Utica contractor just waiting to hear back.. I'm not sure if I will be able to change it in a timely manner

Eastman

Nuts, I see you mentioned that a long time ago. I hate being the forum guy that doesn't make an effort to thoroughly read the whole discussion.

KC_Jones

budpln said:

this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! he hasent come to check anything. he just gave me the quote and said that will cover everything. he has not been to my house.

And since steam boilers are to be sized to the radiation in your house, he couldn't have possibly known how to size this correctly? Not coming to your house to give a quote should have been the biggest red flag ever waved. I wish you best of luck.

vaporvac

I'm confused. Did you send him extensive pics of your system? You stated prior that this guy said all your piping was wrong and he would replace it, yet he's never been to your house. Has he sent you pics of his work that you could post here, or are you just trying to get the ball rolling on the loan?

budpln

Well I forgot now but yes I think I sent him a bunch of pics.. And yes need it done asap

vr608

I can understand the appeal of a 0% loan; we have a similar program in NJ that I was able to take advantage of last year when my boiler started leaking.

Having said that, the notes above about the installer not having been to your house are alarming. If you're unlucky, you may end up having to pay, in addition to your loan:

1) to have your piping redone, if the installer doesn't know steam as well as he says, and
2) increased fuel costs, in case your new boiler is oversized

At the very least, you should confirm in your contract that your boiler is piped to the manufacturer's specs which you (or someone else on this forum) should be able to find online once you get your quote.

Steamowner

KC_Jones said:

KC_Jones
And since steam boilers are to be sized to the radiation in your house, he couldn't have possibly known how to size this correctly? Not coming to your house to give a quote should have been the biggest red flag ever waved. I wish you best of luck.

I got rough estimate quotes over email from several guys from the Find a Contractor search... Can there be variables at each home? Sure. The estimates aren't written in stone. They can be adjusted.
No offense, but I think some of these over the top claims do more harm than good in the homeowners decision making process.
Does this sound like a quote from a homeowner who is being helped? "this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! "

Let's try to help this guy by telling him things other than "get rid of the guy" and "you're doomed. good luck!"

ChrisJ

Steamowner said:

KC_Jones said:

KC_Jones
And since steam boilers are to be sized to the radiation in your house, he couldn't have possibly known how to size this correctly? Not coming to your house to give a quote should have been the biggest red flag ever waved. I wish you best of luck.

I got rough estimate quotes over email from several guys from the Find a Contractor search... Can there be variables at each home? Sure. The estimates aren't written in stone. They can be adjusted.
No offense, but I think some of these over the top claims do more harm than good in the homeowners decision making process.
Does this sound like a quote from a homeowner who is being helped? "this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! "

Let's try to help this guy by telling him things other than "get rid of the guy" and "you're doomed. good luck!"

How are you going to give an estimate without any idea of what equipment, materials and labor you need?

"Yeah, somewhere between $4K-50K".

Steamowner

ChrisJ said:

Steamowner said:

KC_Jones said:

KC_Jones
And since steam boilers are to be sized to the radiation in your house, he couldn't have possibly known how to size this correctly? Not coming to your house to give a quote should have been the biggest red flag ever waved. I wish you best of luck.

I got rough estimate quotes over email from several guys from the Find a Contractor search... Can there be variables at each home? Sure. The estimates aren't written in stone. They can be adjusted.
No offense, but I think some of these over the top claims do more harm than good in the homeowners decision making process.
Does this sound like a quote from a homeowner who is being helped? "this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! "

Let's try to help this guy by telling him things other than "get rid of the guy" and "you're doomed. good luck!"

How are you going to give an estimate without any idea of what equipment, materials and labor you need?

"Yeah, somewhere between $4K-50K".

If you (they) have done 30 jobs for similar sized houses in the area I would think you (they) would have some idea of the equipment, materials and labor involved. Owners want to get a rough estimate up front, so some contractors oblige.
Yes there may be contingencies. The owner understands about potential combustion and chimney cost add-ons.

ChrisJ

Steamowner said:

ChrisJ said:

Steamowner said:

KC_Jones said:

KC_Jones
And since steam boilers are to be sized to the radiation in your house, he couldn't have possibly known how to size this correctly? Not coming to your house to give a quote should have been the biggest red flag ever waved. I wish you best of luck.

I got rough estimate quotes over email from several guys from the Find a Contractor search... Can there be variables at each home? Sure. The estimates aren't written in stone. They can be adjusted.
No offense, but I think some of these over the top claims do more harm than good in the homeowners decision making process.
Does this sound like a quote from a homeowner who is being helped? "this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! "

Let's try to help this guy by telling him things other than "get rid of the guy" and "you're doomed. good luck!"

How are you going to give an estimate without any idea of what equipment, materials and labor you need?

"Yeah, somewhere between $4K-50K".

If you (they) have done 30 jobs for similar sized houses in the area I would think you (they) would have some idea of the equipment, materials and labor involved. Owners want to get a rough estimate up front, so some contractors oblige.
Yes there may be contingencies. The owner understands about potential combustion and chimney cost add-ons.

Ok,

To the OP.
The guy doesn't like the Megasteam for some reason which is concerning, and now he's given an estimate on a huge project without even coming to see what the job even is. That's also concerning to me. I don't like it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion. The whole thing stinks like a major headache down the road.

Not to mention going for an 82% eff boiler when you can just as easy have an 86% is just plain silly especially when most consider that 86% boiler to be of superior quality.

Sailah

I've had a fair amount of experience dealing with Mass Save due to our business involving steam heating in MA. I go to all the Gas Networks conferences and am also a recent homeowner (Forced hot air, the injustice )

Anyways, at the last show I was speaking to a Gas Networks associate and he encouraged me to get a home energy audit, which I did a month ago. I'm on National Grid gas BTW.

The rebates for 2015 needed to be completed by August 31st and the boiler installs by October 31st to qualify. But that was for natural gas customers getting early equipment retirement. Those were the big rebates of $1500-1700.

I just spoke to my contact at Mass Save and had him explain the rebates available, right now. This is what he told me 10 minutes ago:

For oil steam boilers the rebate is $400 and needs to be 84% AFUE or greater. No time limit, expires 12/31/2015 and renews the next day. He needs to have either Eversource or National Grid to get the rebate, the municipal utilities don't offer it.

I would encourage you to speak directly with Mass Save if you haven't already and see what you qualify for. I've found the entire experience to be very helpful and painless. And free.

http://www.masssave.com/en/residential/offers/water-heater-rebate

KC_Jones

Sailah said:

For oil steam boilers the rebate is $400 and needs to be 84% AFUE or greater. No time limit, expires 12/31/2015 and renews the next day. He needs to have either Eversource or National Grid to get the rebate, the municipal utilities don't offer it.

That would eliminate a good number of boilers. Megasteam is 86%

Fred

Steamowner said:

KC_Jones said:

KC_Jones
And since steam boilers are to be sized to the radiation in your house, he couldn't have possibly known how to size this correctly? Not coming to your house to give a quote should have been the biggest red flag ever waved. I wish you best of luck.

I got rough estimate quotes over email from several guys from the Find a Contractor search... Can there be variables at each home? Sure. The estimates aren't written in stone. They can be adjusted.
No offense, but I think some of these over the top claims do more harm than good in the homeowners decision making process.
Does this sound like a quote from a homeowner who is being helped? "this decision has been a nightmare so many opinions! "

Let's try to help this guy by telling him things other than "get rid of the guy" and "you're doomed. good luck!"

@Steamowner , Having made this referral of the installer to this poster, I'm not sure you are helping him at all. Yes, the specifics of every house is different and any installer who would quote a job, site unseen is either quoting way more than th job should cost to cover anything he MIGHT have to do or he plans on doing a botched up job to get in and out as quickly as possible. The advise everyone on this site has given the poster is very valuable to the decision this poster makes. If he chooses to ingore the information and yes, the warning signs, that is his decision and it is not your place to try to tell everybody else what may or may not be causes for concern. Why do you think so many homeowners come here for help after some butcher installed a system for them?

Eastman

@Sailah
By August 31st, you mean by August 31st 2015?

budpln

Now I don't know what to do lol! Sucks I buy a house and 2 months later I have to do this

Eastman

@budpin

Stupid question time: You've got six radiators in the house? How many rooms? What's the square footage? What's the heat loss?