Wanting to replace steam system with forced air or mini splits

a2shutt

Hi, I own a 7 unit apartment building in Michigan that is currently heated with 1 pipe steam. It was poorly maintained before I purchased it, and it is expensive to operate and maintain. I’ve been losing water like crazy for two winters now, and I can’t seem to fix it. I’m fairly sure that the boiler won’t last much longer with all the makeup water that has been added, so I’m planning my next step.

I know a lot of you on here are big steam guys, so I’m not trying to pick a fight However, I’m considering replacing the system with either forced air (one gas furnace on each level) or with individual mini split systems in each unit.

I’m really interested in the mini splits for several reasons. One, I would have a/c, which I don’t have with the boiler. Two, since I currently pay all the utilities, I would be able to split the electric up with the mini splits and make the tenants pay for heating. Three, since there is no existing ductwork, the mini splits might make more sense than a traditional furnace.

Yes, I know the steam heat is a beautiful thing. And I am constantly fascinated by the system. I’m just tired of the maintenance, and of paying high bills. Not to mention the fact that I lose 1-2 tenants every season because they aren’t happy with the temp swings (tenants in this area aren't usually familiar with steam, and they have no idea how it works. Educating them is a futile endeavor). And if I have to replace the boiler anyway, that’s another nail in the coffin.

Anyway, I’m just looking for input. Anyone have experience with heating with mini splits in my geographical area? Any reason to choose a couple of high efficient furnaces over the mini splits? Hey, I’ll even hear the arguments on keeping the steam system.

And again, I know that some of you make your living off of steam systems. I totally respect that, and I'm not saying that steam isn't great. I just don't think it is best in this situation.

Just trying to sort this out and make the best decision. Thanks for your help in advance.

SWEI

Mini-splits are a wonderful thing, but please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Proper sizing of a mini-split or multi-split requires some detailed work to determine the actual room-by-room heat loss and gain (Manual J calcs) for the building. Depending on your local climate, you may find that you can install a much smaller heat pump if you retain the option to pick up the low temperature load using the existing steam system.

Doing this will require a top notch contractor or engineer. Where exactly is the building located?

a2shutt

I'm in Jackson, Michigan- it's climate zone 5. I'll make sure that the contractor runs the manual J numbers. They are all fairly small apartments (400-700 sf), so one or two properly sized units would do it (I think). And from what I've read, it doesn't hurt to oversize mini splits.

I'm mainly concerned about their ability to adequately heat in the dead of winter, and their ability to evenly heat each unit. But I suppose that's where the engineering comes in.

Yes, I was wondering about using the steam during the coldest days, or even just leaving the steam system intact as a backup system. Unfortunately, if the boiler ends up needing to be replaced in the next year or two, it becomes uneconomical. So I'd really like the new system to able to operate on it's own.

nicholas bonham-carter

Do you have enough electric service to handle the increased consumption from heat pumps on the coldest day?
Have you tried flooding the boiler up to the header to see where the leak is coming from, as it may be a leaky wet return, which could be replaced.
How much more rent could you get for these small apartments if they were air conditioned?
Can you easily change the leasing agreements to make the tenants pay for their own heat, or will you have to wait for the lease to run out?--NBC

ChrisJ

I wouldn't be happy with temperature swings either.

My steam system typically maintains no worse than +-1F and often closer than +- 0.5F. Closer than any forced hot air system ever can and more steady. It never hisses, it never bangs and no one can really tell if it's on or off in my house, it's too quiet and steady.

Mini-splits don't come cheap and they don't work very well when it actually gets cold out. Are you sure they are more economical to install than to have a new boiler installed and the steam system fixed so it actually works correctly? A single pipe system can be fitted with an outdoor reset and TRVs in every apartment to maintain close temperature swings as well as save on fuel.

It's going to cost what it's going to cost to heat the space. The question is which will do it cheaper in the long run? I'm betting when it comes to heating the place a properly setup steam system will win by a long shot especially in Michigan. Heat pumps just don't do well when it's actually cold outside.

Mini splits are great for cooling though, I've even considered them for that but I'd likely only use their heating ability in the spring and fall and as soon as we got below 30-40F outside switch to steam.


A side note, my steam system consistently uses less gas than my next door neighbor's forced hot air system. Only a few dollars different per month but mine is a lot quieter and far more comfortable.

a2shutt

NBC- Yes, electric service is not a problem. As far as the boiler leaking goes, the wet return is all exposed and appears to be ok. I had flooded the boiler last year and couldn't find any leaks, but I'm going to do it this year to check again.

I've just had to add so much water that I doubt the boiler has much life left. Last year I was there every single day adding water during the cold stretches. The boiler would be shut down from the LWCO and would need to be re-filled. That gets old fast. And before I bought it, there was just a water feeder that ran all the time.

Leases wouldn't be a problem-I think most tenants would be glad for the a/c. I think I would leave the rent amounts the same; they would be getting a/c out of the deal but would have to pay for their electric consumption.

a2shutt

Chris- Yes, I would love it if my steam system worked that way, and I know it is possible. And it might even be cheaper to run than the mini splits (natural gas vs electric).

Mini splits will probably cost about twice what a new boiler will, or maybe a little more. The big appeal here is that I can transfer the heating bills to the tenants, plus get a/c.

If I can get away from paying to heat the place, I'll be way ahead. And with a boiler, that just isn't an option.

KC_Jones

a2shutt said:

If I can get away from paying to heat the place, I'll be way ahead. And with a boiler, that just isn't an option.

Why?

a2shutt

Why?

Because I can't split up the bill for the steam. It has to be a central heating system, which means I pay the gas bill. With mini splits, I can make individual tenants pay for their metered usage.

ChrisJ

I doubt minisplits will be cheaper to run than a good steam system with a 20F ambient and forget 0F.

By the way,

"If I can get away from paying to heat the place, I'll be way ahead."

I think we all feel that way.

nicholas bonham-carter

If you flooded the boiler up a couple of feet above the waterline, and saw no leaks, then the water must be leaving through a steam leak, which can be found and fixed. Perhaps someone is using some steam from a radiator as a humidifier!--NBC

a2shutt

ChrisJ said:

I doubt minisplits will be cheaper to run than a good steam system with a 20F ambient and forget 0F.

By the way,

"If I can get away from paying to heat the place, I'll be way ahead."

I think we all feel that way.

Haha yes-I suppose that was an obvious statement. Just with the mini splits, that is actually a possibility! Assuming, of course, that they actually work.

a2shutt

nicholas bonham-carter said:

If you flooded the boiler up a couple of feet above the waterline, and saw no leaks, then the water must be leaving through a steam leak, which can be found and fixed. Perhaps someone is using some steam from a radiator as a humidifier!--NBC

I've been through the building a dozen times looking for the leak. Unions are tight, air vents seem to work, no units are excessively humid... I have no idea. The system runs well enough, 1/2 lb of pressure, etc, but just loses water. There are no steam pros in my area that I trust. So I really don't know where to look next.

Rich_49

Have a look at the report attached . Understand what the numbers mean ans think about the building where they will be installed and it's location . You should be able to make a more informed decision after reading .

Rich_49

Not sure making that type of investment just to have A/C makes sense in Jackson . 325 CDD in 2014 and 312 in 2015 . Station ID KMIJACKS12 .. 75* IDB

a2shutt

Thanks Rich. I'll read through that tonight. I agree that the investment doesn't make sense if it is only for the a/c, but the biggest reason is to split up utilities and make the tenants pay for the heating. A/c is secondary to that.

Bob Bona_4

Mini split inverters can produce heat -5 ambient now. Much less hassle as a landlord to have tenants controlling thier own environment, seperated utility bills. The AC is a must have amenity in the competitive rental market.

I do a lot of the Fujitsu RLS3 heat pumps. $300 rebate @ power company to the client.

ChrisJ

Bob Bona said:

Mini split inverters can produce heat -5 ambient now. Much less hassle as a landlord to have tenants controlling thier own environment, seperated utility bills. The AC is a must have amenity in the competitive rental market.



I do a lot of the Fujitsu RLS3 heat pumps. $300 rebate @ power company to the client.

Bob,
How efficient are they at these temperatures?

How often do they fail and lead to costly replacements vs a steam boiler that will go 20-30 years when treated right?

Rich_49

Bob Bona said:

Mini split inverters can produce heat -5 ambient now. Much less hassle as a landlord to have tenants controlling thier own environment, seperated utility bills. The AC is a must have amenity in the competitive rental market.



I do a lot of the Fujitsu RLS3 heat pumps. $300 rebate @ power company to the client.

Bob ,

I know many believe all the hype . You should really read that report . Real world numbers and how they really perform

Bob Bona_4

I have had no complaints, Rich, what can I tell ya? I've got quite a few out there. My biggest worry is mice, they love to nest in them.

Chris, I've been installing them for 23 plus years, with the inverter technology, they are a real alternative to situations like the OP has. Seperating utilities is huge in rental spaces, his spaces are small, how much heat does a 600 sq ft space need? How often does a refrigerator break? When you've see the guts of these things, not much different. Really have had little trouble with them.

Remember, the OP has repeatedly stressed the need to seperate utilities and add AC.

Steamhead

Why doesn't he amend the leases so that tenants pay their share of the heating bill, based on square footage?

Remember, it he installs A/C in that building for whatever reason, he then has to maintain it. If tenants are running their own window units, he doesn't.

To the OP- find the leak, and fix it!

a2shutt

Steamhead said:

Why doesn't he amend the leases so that tenants pay their share of the heating bill, based on square footage?

Remember, it he installs A/C in that building for whatever reason, he then has to maintain it. If tenants are running their own window units, he doesn't.

To the OP- find the leak, and fix it!

If I amend the leases as you suggest, then they owe their share to me. If they decide not to pay, I'm out of luck. However, if they have separate utilities in their own name, they owe the utility company. Totally different ball game.

Yeah, I'm close to giving up on finding the leak. I flooded the boiler again today. Dry as a bone underneath. I've tried all the standard leak finding techniques with no luck. So I really don't know.

a2shutt

Bob Bona said:

I have had no complaints, Rich, what can I tell ya? I've got quite a few out there. My biggest worry is mice, they love to nest in them.



Chris, I've been installing them for 23 plus years, with the inverter technology, they are a real alternative to situations like the OP has. Seperating utilities is huge in rental spaces, his spaces are small, how much heat does a 600 sq ft space need? How often does a refrigerator break? When you've see the guts of these things, not much different. Really have had little trouble with them.



Remember, the OP has repeatedly stressed the need to seperate utilities and add AC.

Thanks for the anecdotal evidence, Bob. I've heard this sort of thing from several people now. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between real life experiences and some data, and I'm not sure which one to trust. I'm guessing theres some truth in all of it. One thing I'm concerned about is at one point these systems switch to resistance heat-that is what will get expensive, even if tenants are paying it. I need to make sure their bills are reasonable too.

Do you find that they heat fairly evenly, or are rooms without the air handlers uncomfortable?

I was thinking about using these to move air into the rooms without the mini splits- http://www.tjernlund.com/airshare_ventilation.htm

vaporvac

Having sat on both sides of the fence, I always preferred to have heat included as a tenant. As a landlord I just added the average billing to the rent, and then some. I then also control the temp. Electric is easier to split. and it sometimes makes more sense to focus efforts there. Additional electric heat and all-day a/c in vacant rooms are then the tenants' issue. I like @Steamhead 's approach based on sq ftg.

P.s. I'm waiting to answer the other post....is this the same building?