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Amish heating engineers-at it again!

http://fortune.com/2015/09/28/energy-tech-grocery-stores/

Is there something fishy here, or was I just daydreaming in Science class?

Comments

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,330
    edited September 2015
    Those coolers do have fan to distribute the air evenly. I am sure that the synchronous motor would be more efficient than induction for that application. Makes sense to me.

    What the article would like you to believe is that those little motors are presently using 70% of the stores energy and that the synchronous motor is a new invention that will solve the problem.

    I reality, the synchronous motor has been around for quite a while. In addition, most of the energy in refrigeration is used by the compressor motors that are not even mentioned in the article.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    BobbyBoy
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    This has been a no-brainer for about a decade now. Like LED case lighting, there is a double win by reducing both the power consumption and the additional case heat that must be rejected.

    I just don't see the big deal here. EC fan motors became a standard option for commercial refrigeration several years ago after one of the EPACT bills. The major unit cooler manufacturers have had EC motor retrofit kits for at least five years now.

    The next round will be variable speed EC compressor motors, which will bring same kind of massive efficiency and performance improvements to commercial refrigeration they did to heatpumps. I wish they'd hurry up already...
    Zman
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,833
    edited September 2015
    Don't synchronous motors typically have slip rings and brushes which automatically means a limited life and increased RF noise?

    SWEI, I'll be keeping ol-reliable for cooling food my self.

    I'm still not sure what to think about products that cost 2 to 3 times as much to make and last half as long actually saving energy or being good for the environment.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    kcopp
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,330
    ChrisJ said:

    Don't synchronous motors typically have slip rings and brushes which automatically means a limited life and increased RF noise?


    No, they actually don't.
    Do you have some info to support this?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    BobbyBoy
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,833
    Zman said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Don't synchronous motors typically have slip rings and brushes which automatically means a limited life and increased RF noise?


    No, they actually don't.
    Do you have some info to support this?
    No, I guess just a wrong memory of mine.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,833
    Although, a quick look at Wiki agrees with what I had remembered but apparently modern ones don't necessarily need brushes.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_motor


    The principal components of a synchronous motor are the stator and the rotor.[15] The stator of synchronous motor and stator of induction motor are similar in construction.[16] With the wound-rotor synchronous doubly-fed electric machine as the exception, the stator frame contains wrapper plate.[17] Circumferential ribs and keybars are attached to the wrapper plate.[17] To carry the weight of the machine, frame mounts and footings are required.[17] When the field winding is excited by DC excitation, brushes and slip rings are required to connect to the excitation supply.[18] The field winding can also be excited by a brushless exciter.[19] Cylindrical, round rotors, (also known as non salient pole rotor) are used for up to six poles. In some machines or when a large number of poles are needed, a salient pole rotor is used.[20][21] The construction of synchronous motor is similar to that of a synchronous alternator.[22]
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,330
    I guess time will tell on the longevity of these things. So far the ECM circulators and fans seem to be doing well which makes think they have figured out how to make the controls robust enough.
    I have to agree with Kurt, that the fact that you save not only on the energy required to spin the motor but you also save not having to cool the waste heat coming from the motor makes this a win, win.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    BobbyBoy
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,759
    Just count the glass selfserve doors in a large supermarket, There is almost one fan motor for each door you see. These run 24/7/365 forever, except freezer fans which will shut off for defrosting the coil maybe 1-2 hours a day. They are just little mouse power motors but when you crunch the numbers the KW adds up. Hard to convince smaller store owners to change something like that over to EC motors...."but the old ones are not worn out yet".
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,833
    JUGHNE said:

    Just count the glass selfserve doors in a large supermarket, There is almost one fan motor for each door you see. These run 24/7/365 forever, except freezer fans which will shut off for defrosting the coil maybe 1-2 hours a day. They are just little mouse power motors but when you crunch the numbers the KW adds up. Hard to convince smaller store owners to change something like that over to EC motors...."but the old ones are not worn out yet".

    Once you convince the store owner to do it, will he ever get the money back he spent on the new fans + labor?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • QM_Power
    QM_Power Member Posts: 2
    Nice to see that the Fortune article on Q-Sync has generated a good discussion about motor efficiency. There are a few points we'd like to clarify.

    First up, one of the commenters is right, the synchronous motor is NOT a new invention. QM Power did not invent the synchronous motor - rather, we’ve significantly improved the basic technology. For more information please see our announcement here: http://qmpower.com/2015/09/qm-power-introduces-the-q-sync-smart-synchronous-motor/ and the product information on our Web site here: http://qmpower.com/products/.

    With regards to EC fan motors, the current standard for motor efficiency, the Q-Sync motor is significantly more efficient, as validated in this report from Oak Ridge National Labs: http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/Files/Pub58600.pdf. This report is the result of work done through a Department of Energy initiative to showcase more energy efficient technologies.

    Q-Sync motors are more efficient because ECMs require continual conversion between AC and DC power throughout its use to operate, whereas Q-Sync’s innovative controller eliminates the need for power conversion after the motor starts. Once the motor is up-to-speed, Q-Sync’s advanced electronics efficiently shift the motor to AC power supplied directly from the grid. And because Q-Sync is a permanent magnet motor, it eliminates the additional energy requirements and slip that is associated with a shaded-pole motor. The result is a motor that provides up to an 80% reduction of energy at the meter and an 80% reduction at the grid.

    In addition, because its electric circuit runs for a fraction of the time required by an ECM motor, the Q-Sync motor is more reliable and lasts longer - at the same cost as an ECM. The Q-Sync motor also features water resistant casing that prevents common wear and tear from on-site elements, and we offer a 2-year warranty - double the industry standard.

    We encourage interested folks to review the findings in the ORNL report here: http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/Files/Pub58600.pdf. We're also happy to answer any questions you may have, please contact us at [email protected]

    Best,
    The QM Power team
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,833
    "The result is a motor that provides up to an 80% reduction of energy at the meter and an 80% reduction at the grid."

    Ok so now that we know the reduction in energy isn't more than 80%, what is typical?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • QM_Power
    QM_Power Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for your inquiry. It depends on what type of motor we are replacing. We encourage you to review the ORNL report noted above for much more detailed data, comparisons and analysis or contact us off line at [email protected]

    Best,
    The QM Power team
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,759
    Chris, the store owner I was referring is close to retirement. If he were given the choice for a single replacement and shown the numbers he would go for the standard replacement motor for half the money. I don't know the real ROI but someone with 10-15 years in front of them probably would benefit, especially in sub-zero freezers.
  • QM Power Team - I have some of my patented "stupid questions".
    1) I read how the Hall effect sensor takes the motor up to speed - how does your motor know if it's going the right direction?
    2) What's the max Hp available?
    3) Can these be fitted with a variable speed controllers?
    4) Water cooled (wet rotor) or only air cooled?