Riser, Header, Main pipe sizing

cubicacres

We're narrowing down our boiler selcetion to the Weil MClain EG-75 or something similar in size for our 780 sf ft of radiation steam install. It has a single header, so we're thinking about a 4 inch header with a rise of 36 inches above the water-line, 4 inch drop-header, and 4 inch risers into our existing 4 inch main (we'll verify the mains are 4 inches or larger). Our old EGH-85 was larger and had two 2 inch risers without a drop header into 2 or 3 inch headers, so we're hoping the single 4 inch riser about foot higher & with a drop header will be enough for drier steam since the boiler is about 14% smaller.
Any thoughts about using the same 4 inch pipe for the riser, drop header, and new header into the same-size main with our new boiler?

ChrisJ

The block has tappings for 3" risers so 4" is pointless.

A 4" header sounds like a good idea with two 3" risers and a 2" equalizer.

ChrisJ

You want to keep a drop header above the boiler at a minimum and the risers should still go up as far as reasonable before they turn and drop down.

36" is reasonable and will work well.

Dave0176

Cubicacres here are few examples of previous boiler jobs I've done in the past. You might want to build the same type of header, however what the others are saying is leave space after the last boiler riser I guess about 12-18" inches to help the steam settle down. I've never had any issues at all with the way I build them though. The first one is a Williamson GSA 125 (Weil McLain EG40 in disguise) I used two 2-1/2 boiler risers into a 3" drop header, the second is a Weil McLain EG35 with two 2" boiler risers into a 3" drop header.

jonny88

Dave do you use an auto water feeder?

Dave0176

jonny88 said:

Dave do you use an auto water feeder?

Nope don't like them, I'd rather the HO at least weekly check his or her boiler.

If it's an appartment building I really have no choice, I'll install it because no one is going to go check the boiler. I've done this in the past and I'll use the VXT just to monitor water usage.

JStar

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/146979/steam-formulas

Here is a header sizing chart I made. 4" would be the smallest header I would choose. If you keep your pressure under 8-10 ounces, you'll be fine.

Increasing the boiler risers won't make an affective difference. Just use the full port size that they offer. The header size matters more.

cubicacres

Thanks. We're thinking about the WeilMclain EG-75 with one 3 inch riser, or the Utica PEG299EID with 2 2 inch risers (can we up-size them to 3 inches each?). Then a drop-header and 4 or 5 inch header. Any reasons we'd go with the Utica vs Weil Mclain or vice-versa?

cubicacres

We have 780 sq ft of radiation, so liked the 782 sq ft listed on the Utica specs vs 750 on the WMC, plus its higher 83.4% efficiency ratio & the fact it has a drop header setup on p29 of the manual. We think anything around this size would be ok (the peerless 63-06 was also reccomended, even though rated a bit smaller at 746 sq ft.).

Fred

I would go with the Peerless or the WM before I went with the Utica. The Utica, I believe has the riser tappings coming out of the sides of the boiler and that seems to make them more sensitive to issues around wet steam and/or water levels.
In any case, with the size of any of these boiler, including the WM, you want to use Two risers out of the boiler. It is just a little more piping and the impact that has on steam flow/dryness make it a no brainer. Use the full tapping size for the risers.

cubicacres

We just measured our pipes, (pictures below for reference) and found the following:
Two 2 inch risers on our old Weil Mclain EGH-85 (1st photo),
a 3 inch header (no drop header per the 2nd photo), connected to a 3.5 inch main line out the boiler room that splits into 2 mains-one 3 inch & one 2.5 inch main lines (photo 3), the left-turning (South) main of 3 inches (photo 4), 2 returns back in boiler room with gorton #2 vent at top (photo 5-I'll load it in the next post since I'm having trouble with my pics now.), our old outside controller & wall thermostat with sensor in unit #2 of 5 unit building (photo 6), our 33% under-sized fresh-air intake screen (photo 7), and finally photo 8 with the gauges on our old boiler.

With these pipe diameter limitations, are we stuck with a certain configuration or boiler if we don't want to increase the size of the main pipes? We originally wanted a 3 inch or 4 inch riser(s) with 4-5 inch header, but don't know about that with 3.5 inch main splitting off into 2.5 & 3 inch mains further out. Any thoughts about this configuration?

cubicacres

photo 6 of old wall controllers to continue above post photos, photo 7 air intake, photo 8 old boiler gauges.

cubicacres

for some reason it wouldn't let me post the old wall controllers & old gauges photos-maybe too many photos tonight?

cubicacres

Here's the photo of the gauges & wet return...still trying to get the wall controllers photo to upload.

Fred

You are not limited to any specific boiler , based on the size of the Main. Build your risers out of the boiler, using the pipe size that matches the tappings in the boiler. Use both tappings. Use fittings that open up to the diameter of the Header you want to use, be it 4" or 5" and use fittings that step down to the diameter of the Mains you want to tie into that Header.

I know you won't like what I'm about to say, but that Main that has a "Bull head" Tee on it and splits and goes two directions would be properly piped if you split it into two seperate Mains that both come off of the Boiler Header. That Bull head Tee is typically a No-No. Steam hits the back of that Tee and then pushes out whichever way. If it works on the current boiler and you don't have any issues, (hammer or steam balancing issues) it will probably work with the new boiler but it isn't ideal.

cubicacres

Thanks for the main reassurance. We were concerned about reducing the size from the header into the main, or risers into headers.
Then we can chose the boiler we like, run the risers an inch or two out of the boiler tappings before stepping them up from 2 to 3-4 inches or so, to make the drop-header, then run out to the header at 4-5 inches and reduce to 3.5 inches before joining the first part of the main since that's the diameter we have?

I can imagine more or less steam going one way or another in an unbalanced way with that bull head split on the main. This might explain the uneven heat on some radiators on the 1st floor compared to over-heating on the 2nd floor? One split is 3 in, the other 2.5 in, so maybe the narrower one has colder radiators?
Is this worth re-piping? Would it be re-doing the first 15 feet of near-boiler piping to that bull head with 2 seperate mains that join each pipe going different directions?

Abracadabra

If the only source of combustion air is that small vent in the glass block window, I'd suggest adding a larger opening somewhere. That's no where near enough air for the boiler and the 2 hot water heaters I see in the picture.

Dave0176

Please don't use the Utica, with the 2-1/2 side steam tappings. As far as I'm concerned thats mearly a hot water boiler converted for steam use. As many have said it's very hard to get this boiler to produce dry steam, also as others have mentioned only the first 1/3 of the gauge glass is usefull as the low water cutoff is mounted too high, rendering the rest useless.

Me being a Weil McLain man I'll push the EG75, at least it has 3" tappings.

Fred

cubicacres said:

Thanks for the main reassurance. We were concerned about reducing the size from the header into the main, or risers into headers.
Then we can chose the boiler we like, run the risers an inch or two out of the boiler tappings before stepping them up from 2 to 3-4 inches or so, to make the drop-header, then run out to the header at 4-5 inches and reduce to 3.5 inches before joining the first part of the main since that's the diameter we have?

I can imagine more or less steam going one way or another in an unbalanced way with that bull head split on the main. This might explain the uneven heat on some radiators on the 1st floor compared to over-heating on the 2nd floor? One split is 3 in, the other 2.5 in, so maybe the narrower one has colder radiators?
Is this worth re-piping? Would it be re-doing the first 15 feet of near-boiler piping to that bull head with 2 seperate mains that join each pipe going different directions?

It is probably a major cause of uneven distribution of steam, assumming the main venting is good. In any case, it is well worth the cost to seperate those two mains and carry each out from the header, from a comfort perspective if for no other reason.

Dave0176

Hatterasguy said:

Dave0176 said:

Please don't use the Utica, with the 2-1/2 side steam tappings. As far as I'm concerned thats mearly a hot water boiler converted for steam use. As many have said it's very hard to get this boiler to produce dry steam, also as others have mentioned only the first 1/3 of the gauge glass is usefull as the low water cutoff is mounted too high, rendering the rest useless.

Me being a Weil McLain man I'll push the EG75, at least it has 3" tappings.

Actually, the Utica is even worse with 2" side tappings.

But, for unknown reasons, it DOES have its probe at the very bottom of the steam chest, unlike all other ECR boilers.

I'd love for ECR to explain why Utica is different (and proper) for the probe location.

You know what Hat I was thinking of a Penco I worked on I thought all ECRs were the same.

vaporvac

You could also go with a Slantfin Intrepid TR50 with a gas conversion burner, if needed. They're wonderful boilers with thick construction and outstanding customer service.

cubicacres

Thanks. The Utica can get us an extra $350 for Energy credit since it's over 83% efficient and was $800 cheaper then the WMC, while the WMC & Peerless were around 81-82% efficient. Not a big deal in the long run, I guess. Any other reccomendations that might be 83% efficient?

The WMC EG75 only had one riser tapping, but at 3 in, that may be enough? Or is that tapping size irrelevant if we can up-size any of them to 4 inches anyway?

Dave0176

cubicacres said:

Thanks. The Utica can get us an extra $350 for Energy credit since it's over 83% efficient and was $800 cheaper then the WMC, while the WMC & Peerless were around 81-82% efficient. Not a big deal in the long run, I guess. Any other reccomendations that might be 83% efficient?

The WMC EG75 only had one riser tapping, but at 3 in, that may be enough? Or is that tapping size irrelevant if we can up-size any of them to 4 inches anyway?

The EG 75 comes with two 3" tappings, one is however capped from the factory, just remove it and use it.

ChrisJ

What's the point in buying a fully assembled boiler?
My EG-45 (now EG40) came completely disassembled. Well, everything except the block. The block was assembled but everything else was packed separately.

It's like building a model. Only, instead of sitting on a shelf collecting dust it heats your building.

I guess because it wasn't assembled the second riser tapping wasn't plugged either, nothing was. I believe I got a plastic bag with plugs and stuff in it.

cubicacres

WMC tech. just told me the EG75 only has one riser-but at 3", is a second one critical? How do we find the 2nd one-or why would they tell us it didn't exist?

S/F tech. reccomended just going with their gas boilers vs. installing a gas conversion burner since it would lower AFUE a bit to similar gas models.

Anyone know of any gas steam boilers that are AFUE rated at 83% or more?

ChrisJ

cubicacres said:

WMC tech. just told me the EG75 only has one riser-but at 3", is a second one critical? How do we find the 2nd one-or why would they tell us it didn't exist?

S/F tech. reccomended just going with their gas boilers vs. installing a gas conversion burner since it would lower AFUE a bit to similar gas models.

Anyone know of any gas steam boilers that are AFUE rated at 83% or more?

Sigh.

The EG-75 has two riser tappings.
All EG and EGH series boilers do. If WM's tech support told you that they're not very good at their job.

ChrisJ

cubicacres

Conflicting information has been the story of our boiler research project the last 2 months! No one seems to agree on anything-making the research more difficult. We thought this was objective thermodynamics that obeyed the laws of physics, but every contractor we meet (13+ and counting so far) has their own strong opinions that directly contradict each other (drop headers are good, drop headers are bad and cause water hammer, increase the headers to 4-5 inches from 2, keep them the same 2 inches, etc, etc.)...even the Knuckleheads are sure water runs out of single-pipe steam radiators and flows back to the 2nd return coming into the boiler room

WMC tech just said p17 of the install manual has dashes on the2ndr riser column for all EG's, so only one riser until you use the EGH models. The 2-3 in the brochure above means "2-3 inch size riser reccomended" on the single riser setup for the EG75.

ChrisJ

There has been zero conflicting information on this forum regarding what size and quantity of risers to use as well as what size header.

Every person on here has told you two 3" risers.
WMC also said a steamer that was piped completely wrong looked great on twitter.

I'm done with these threads as I feel like I'm wasting my time now. I wish you the best of luck.

KC_Jones

Did you try calling Dave yet (see attached image)?
http://www.thesteamwhisperer.net/
The manual DOES NOT say there is only one riser, it says you only need to use one riser. The recommendations on here and from anyone who knows steam is to use both tappings...I have read a bunch of your posts and I don't see anyone saying only use one. If the contractors you are calling are giving conflicting information it's most likely because none of them know what they are doing, it's not conflicting it's in all likelihood all wrong. Call Dave and have him come out.

cubicacres

We didn't say the forum had conflicting info-we trust this site more than the contractors (and a few manufacturer's reps) claiming conflicting info. But from not knowing anything 3 months ago to 250+ hours of research in steam as of today, it's been quite an undertaking.

The profit motive & salesmanship forces within a specialized industry like steam were much higher than we were expecting in our area, I guess.

ChrisJ

Call The Steam Whisperer.

Tell him to install a boiler.

Problem solved.

Bio

As said before call Dave Bunell, sit back and let him do the job, but don't be surprise if he tells you he's too busy to come over, you've wasted too much time

cubicacres

We just talked with Dave this afternoon, and appreciate his level of knowledge.

We appreciate the consistently high knowledge level on this board as well, and wish everyone was as knowledgeable in our local area, but that hasn't been our personal experience so far.
Perhaps I should have bolded the following part to clarify our thoughts about local contractors we've gotten bids from:

"We thought this was objective thermodynamics that obeyed the laws of physics, but every contractor we meet (13+ and counting so far) has their own strong opinions that directly contradict each other"

Fred

cubicacres said:

Thanks. The Utica can get us an extra $350 for Energy credit since it's over 83% efficient and was $800 cheaper then the WMC, while the WMC & Peerless were around 81-82% efficient. Not a big deal in the long run, I guess. Any other reccomendations that might be 83% efficient?

The WMC EG75 only had one riser tapping, but at 3 in, that may be enough? Or is that tapping size irrelevant if we can up-size any of them to 4 inches anyway?

Part of the struggle everyone is having on this thread is the fact that you seem to be doubting your decisions and waffleing back and forth on what you should do. You locked in on the WM and now, for a mear $350.00 in one time energy credits, you are wanting to buy a boiler (the Utica) that we've all told you has its own set of issues with those side riser tappings and the LWCO probe location. Even though it is also $800.00cheaper than the WM, I always say "you get what you pay for" The design of the two boilers is an apples/oranges comparison. Here are the facts:
- The WM is the better, long term solution for you compared to the Utica.
- The WM EG75 does have two tappings
- The WM will be delivered broken down so as to be more manageable and not damage any panels/skins.
- A drop Header is, by far and away the better option for nice dry steam AND for more head room to connect mains.
- The Risers out of the boiler should be the full boiler tapping size
- The Header (Drop or conventional) should be at least one full size larger than the risers. If you want to go 2 sizes larger, that is even better.
- Per our prior post, now is the time to get that Bull Head Tee out of the equation and tie the two mains directly into the Header.
- If you haven't signed a contract with an installer, call one of the guys that have been recommended in this thread. If you have a contractor, get everything you've been advised to do here, in writing and in the contract.
You have to make a decision and move on to the next phase, ordering and installation.

cubicacres

I don't think we've had anyone from this forum at our place yet for a bid. I suspect if we did, we'd be impressed with their knowledge compared to who's been through already

ChrisJ

cubicacres said:

I don't think we've had anyone from this forum at our place yet for a bid. I suspect if we did, we'd be impressed with their knowledge compared to who's been through already

What about Dave Bunnell?
Is he coming out?

Bio

Couldn't resist...

cubicacres

Thanks you everyone. To reassure you, Dave & I are talking.

Dave in QCA

Thoughts on this conversation.

In reading back over several points of this conversation. I note that the original poster stated that W-M states that the boiler only has one RISER. The fact is, according to the installation manual, that is completely correct. However, the boiler block has TAPPINGS in each of the end sections, which allows the installer to install the riser at either end.... OR exceed the minimum recommendations and install 2 risers. A Tapping is not a Riser until you thread a pipe into it. I agree with all, go ahead and use both tappings. Two risers will slow that steam down, make it dryer, and will give you better performance.

I also questioned the advice to separate the mains and bring them back to the boiler individually. One main splitting into two is a common configuration and it works just fine when done correctly. As I looked at your pictures, I discovered the BULL HEADED TEE. THAT is a big problem and should be corrected. Follow the advice and bring those mains back to the boiler separately. It doesn't look like you have that much distance.

cubicacres

Thanks Dave-we definetley want to have two 3 inch risers from the two tappings for slower, drier steam.

Are you referring to the BULL HEADED TEE inside the boiler room a few feet above the water line about 4 feet from the boiler, (not the TEE in the main 10 feet outside the boiler room another 20 feet down the main or so, that splits the 3.5 in. main into a 3 & 2.5 in. main )?