Heating water in 2- 55 gal trash cans

maybemark

when you do the math it doesn't sound bad, but do you think this is realistic?

maybemark

I didn't know, they even make an 800 watt heater for 90 bucks
most other 300 or 400 range in price from 25.00 50 bucks

maybemark

is there such a thing as a dial in sensor, so i can stop the pump when it reaches the proper degree?

maybemark

Gordy, am I dreaming? or is just using submersible heaters better in the long run

maybemark

carl
what do you think?

Gordy

It would take 13770 buts to raise the temp of the water 15 degrees.

After reading up on these fish I think I would use standard practice for their care. Nothing would be worse than finding 100 dollar bills floating on top of the tank one morning.

SWEI

We had grass carp in our pond in Reno. I had to get an importation permit from fish & wildlife when the pond needed a few more of them. They will eat their weight when the water is warm enough, but they still do a good job even in cooler ponds.

Back to the topic at hand, yes -- you can bend the PEX quite easily.

Paul48

They appear to be beautiful fish. From my perspective, I don't have enough hours in a day to care for them. I'm up at 5 a.m. and get home from work at 7:30 p.m. Enjoying the fish would involve being sound asleep with my forehead against the aquarium glass. Then I could wake up, work on the boiler, fix the toilet, mow the lawn, paint the house, and any other honey-do's on the list. I envy your free time.

maybemark

Gordy
So you feel my thoughts would not work, or save money? but probably kill the fish?
I often find I have to change aquarium heaters, they go bad and either boil the fish, or freeze them.
I was hoping to be able to use my boiler for heating of the can, but it seems, more people think differently.
I wonder what is used by the people that sell these fish. i know they have at least one heater in each tank, i can't imagine they have this hind of heater in the large aging tank

maybemark

in my head, i thought it would be a good way of cutting cost to heat, and be able to use my boiler for the cans.
Does anyone think using the boiler would work?

maybemark

Paul
I'm on disability, because of work. I loved my occupation, and I was very good at it. I much rather be working, than finding things i can do

Terry O

There's been a lot of discussions here regarding you situation but you also need to keep in mind the pH requirements of Discus.... 5.0-6.0. This totally eliminates use of any metals. Hot Rod offered the simplest solution if trying to utilize your existing boiler system. I've been in the heating industry for 40 years and keeping fish even longer... I have found it is often times better to stay with products specifically manufactured and sold for the aquatics industry. Just an opinion. Good luck.

hot_rod

Isn't an aquarium basically a glass radiator?

If you need to maintain the water temperature above the ambient room temperature, you will need to add heat energy on a regular basis. So the math is not just the amount of energy to take the water from 68 or 70F, but to maintain it there.

If in fact Gordys numbers are real, is 300 bucks a year for electricity worth considering a boiler system?

Still not clear if you are trying just to heat replacement water, or use the boiler to maintain the tank once filled also?

If this is for then long run, and you can do a nice installation without additional headaches a hydronicaly heated fish tank sounds interesting. You could build a hydronic pad to set the fish tank on to maintain temperature, and dump the un-reliable electric immersion heaters altogether.

Certainly controls to maintain an accurate temperature are easy to build or buy. You could even add a high limit if the control fails, or an alarm if the temperature drops too low. A dual setpoint control from dozens of manufacturers could run easily control this.

You can buy pex already in a coil, and it would easily fit into a 55 gallon plastic drum or trash can.

It would make for an interesting article. Heck the energy from your computer could be harnessed to heat the tanks, by now you would have had a few months worth of recoverable heat from the 'puter

Pulling small amounts of heat energy from the DHW tank via this HX idea would also eliminate boiler short cycling, as this sounds like a micro load potential.

hot_rod

Looks like the number is 3-5 watts per gallon of water when sizing aquarium heaters. Your tanks are how many gallons?

It sounds like the larger expense is maintaining the temperature, not heating water for the initial fill? How often does the water need to be changed, and how many gallons each time.

To get a good handle on the question we will need some actual numbers.

hot_rod

Some formulas for you.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/thermodynamics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

maybemark

Terry
Nice to meet you. And I hear what you saying but, i was just thinking there are many water changes I need to do each week.
I will have 7 display tank, once i start the discus.
Ranging fro 55 gal to 135 gal, both marine and fresh.
you know, when those aquarium heaters go on, that electric meter spins
Just trying to find a way, that is economical

Gordy

Hot rod I just used the btu formula 1 btu is what it takes to raise 1# of water 1* F. So 150 gal tank is 1251 pounds of water so every degree you raise the water temp is 1251 btus. I think my calc was based on the 110 gal worth of trash cans.

So if you let the water make room temp before heating to say ambient 75* it would be 1251 x 20= 25020 btus.

At 3-5 watts per gal that's a 750 watt heater on the high side. So less than the 900 watt Mark is thinking about. Wondering though if bigger is better for heater longevity.

Wondering if heat loss is more like a swimming pool where evaporation is the killer. Tanks are usually covered.

From what I have read about the fish is the aquariums need a 25%'water exchange weekly. And like terry o pointed out PH 5-6.

I see these fish are pricey, and breeding stock is important to hardiness. They go from 70 to 270 bucks a piece depending on size, and color.

Each fish needs 11 gal of water so 150 gal can support 13 fish. That's a pretty good chunk of change to experiment with none aquatic intended life support equipment. At least for me I would be looking to whom ever your buying the stock from to see their system.

maybemark

Hot rod
This would be for all the water changes I have to do each week.
This is not water going into the trash cans, this will be heating the water in the trash cans, before it gets pumped upstairs to my fish room.
I have 2 - 135 gal tanks 2- 125 gal 1 - 75 gal and 2-55.
the 135 will have the most often change, this will be the discus tank

maybemark

Gordy
Many of the things are correct about the fish, there is alot of controversy about the ph. what I put in the trash cans, does not go into the tank, until I pump it up there.
The last few years ,I see my electrical bill rise , a good part of it is heating the water to go in the tank, yes, there are plenty of pumps, Maybe it's just a dream of mine, but it seems like such a simple thing. None of the tubing that heats the water will be going into the fish tank, it will just go back to the boiler.
It's like no different than a DHW

maybemark

it seems like I am the only one that sees it that way. I should listen to your words, and bite the bullet of the electric bill

Gordy

Not saying it wont work Mark it will heat the water, but you are introducing some components that are not tested in the AIAA (Aquarium institute of Aquatic animals).

hot_rod

I see no harm or downside to a hydronic experiment if your goal is to just pre-heat water in the trash can before pumping it into the fish tanks. It's just a water heater at the end of the day.

A dual coil indirect would be ideal. Boiler input in the bottom, the upper coil to pre-heat the water in the trash cans. But the ph of that water may be an issue. The pex HX in a plastic tank solves all those water concerns.

Once the water is in the fish tanks maybe stay with heaters designed for that application. A wide array of heaters from 50 bucks up to several hundred for titanium high quality. I suppose you get what you pay for.

I think a big portion of your power bill is maintaining all that water content. If my math is correct you are keeping over 700 gallons of water warm in an uninsulated glass container

If 4 watts per gallon is the accurate number from the industry, that is 1,515 watts you need to maintain the tanks PLUS the heating of the water that you change and replenish.

Being a hydronics tinker I would build a gas fired system with your boiler, but it may not be worth the risk for you, considering the cost of the livestock

Maybe just start adding some solar PV modules to your home to offset the electrical cost.

maybemark

thanks guys

Paul48

Panels are roughly $1/watt to purchase. A micro-inverter for each panel will run you about $250, provided your electric utility will let you grid-tie. If not, you need a bank of batteries with a charge controller. Bottom line, if you do the install....$3500- $5000. By the time it has paid for itself, you'll be replacing components.

maybemark

thanks paul

maybemark

what if i would take 1/2 copper, put a tee and valve after the pump for the DHW. Bring the 1/2" copper to the filter room, make a connection of the copper and the pex, coil the pex and place it in each trash can, bring back the 1/2 back to the boiler. Then turn on the hot water, open the valve, let that got to the plastic garbage cans already filled with RO water. when it's reaches 80, close the valve turn off the hot water. I wouldn't think it would take a long time to heat 100 gal to 80 degrees

Gordy

Yes that would work. Manual but simple. You really only need to heat the water before an exchange not maintain temp constantly.

RobG

Hot Rods first drawing seems the simplest to me and is automatic. Tee into the domestic water in and out of the indirect (not the boiler piping for the indirect), install a check valve and a stainless pump and run a coil of pex in the barrels. then you simply need to install a temperature sensor for the barrels that activate the pump. The indirects temperature sensor will fire the boiler to replenish the domestic in the tank.

Paul48

How do you get the water in the barrels that has not seen copper pipe? Can filtration remove what has been added by the water that's passed through copper pipe? Wow......It's amazing, the difficulty reproducing what nature provides any animal, in the wild. This is a small, fragile creature, but then again, humans are fragile. We spend our lives exposing ourselves to massive quantities of the things that would kill this creature in minute quantities.
Mark........Can the water be filtered and re-used? I know the fish lives in rivers and has constant water change. Is it possible to re-create that?

maybemark

Gordy, this is totally correct. With all the tanks, I might be needing to heat about 700 gals a week, maybe less
Rob, I can not do it hot rod's way. it would be going thru copper, and the fish will die
Paul
I have an RO filter, but, my house is iron pipe, not copper anyways.
My filter is 5 or 6 stage

maybemark

How I see it, I can have the hot water hardly on in the basement laundry sink, this would keep the pump going for the DHW, or should i have a zone valve and it's own pump?

hot_rod

maybemark said:

Gordy, this is totally correct. With all the tanks, I might be needing to heat about 700 gals a week, maybe less
Rob, I can not do it hot rod's way. it would be going thru copper, and the fish will die
Paul
I have an RO filter, but, my house is iron pipe, not copper anyways.
My filter is 5 or 6 stage

Hmmm you must be misunderstanding my drawing and explanation, none of the water inside the pex coil touches the water in the barrel. The DHW water from the HW tank is only inside the pex heat exchanger coil. The water in the drum, that fills the fish tanks comes from whatever source you have that filters it.

maybemark

Hot Rod, what you are saying now is correct, but you drawing has an H and a C, Hot Cold.
but what you just said is my thoughts also

hot_rod

H &C just shows the connections into the indirect. You need to connect into both to get a complete loop thru the tank so the pump flows the hot out into the Pex coil.

maybemark

This not my field, I just thought H stans for hot, and C stands for cold.
I need to connect this to intake and the returm
If I was wrong, I am sorry Hot Rod

maybemark

a few questions, from people who would like to help me/
Is 1/2" copper good enough for the intake and out of the garbage cans, or should i go larger?
what size pex should I use?
Is there a sensor i can put in the trash can that will tell the pump to turn off at the temperature i would like?
Should I use the dhw terminals, will it work, if i have both this new system and for the water tank?
or would it be better if i put it on another zone, and disconect the ouside temperature for the summer months.

I like my idea, using the boiler to et the water, I am just not sure of pump to use and sized of both copper and pex. and do i use a probe, for turning off pump when it gets to 84 degrees
thanks all
Mark

rick in Alaska

I inherited 6 discus fish from a guy who had to leave town and couldn't take them with him. Lost one the next day and went downhill from there. Just could not get it right.
Anyway, the previous owner would fill up his upstairs bathtub once a week and let it settle for a while to get the chlorine out. Then he would gravity feed it with a hose to the tank downstairs. He had a very elaborate setup with c02 bottles and the whole works. Gorgeous tank.
I would use Hot Rods suggestions. If you can get the cans above the tank, then you could just put a big coil of pex in the garbage cans, tie it in to the boiler loop with a thermostat in the garbage can, and when it is hot and ready to go, you just gravity feed it to the tank with a siphon hose. With the thermostat, it will keep the water at 85 until you are ready to use it.
Rick

hot_rod

I think you mentioned the barrel is below the tank? If so a small submersible garden hose pump like Little Giant, plenty others at the box stores for inexpensive plastic pumps. This will transfer water from the barrel to the fish tank.

Just get 100 foot coil of 1/2 pex. use it from the indirect to the pump, pump into coil in the barrel and back to the indirect, really no need for any copper anywhere, maybe just a tee to connect into the indirect tank piping. You might hire a plumber to make those connections with a couple ball valves to disconnect the system.

Two 1/2" ball valves with 6" of copper tube and you could use SharkGrip fittings to connect the pex to the valves, same at the record pump.

If you are around to keep an eye on the barrel temperature, no need to have any control, plug in the pump, stick a thermometer in the tank, turn off the pump when it hits 85F. if it overshoots, add some cold to get the temperature you need. You will not get the barrel any warmer than the DHW indirect is, probably not even as warm with a pex coil. it may give you pretty close to the temperature you need without any controller. You can add a temperature control later if you want it more automatic.

Drop the Little Giant into the barrel, plug it in and transfer the water into the fish tank.

These are random pics from the www, not trying to show pricing, shop local suppliers, e-bay, Craigslist, wherever you are comfortable.

maybemark

hot Rod
I already have the pump to go from the trash cans to the fish tank, it's a small utility pump I had gotten from all the tanks I have, people would trow them in.
I have to use copper, the boiler is about 30 feet to the filter room. so, I'll need 6 sticks og copper and how man feet of the pex, to make 2 coils, 25', 50' ?
I just not sure on tieing it in after the pump, I did say I was going to do it that way, will the dhw pump stay on to heat my coils? or will it turn off when the sensor in the tank reaches 135.

maybemark

Rick
these fish are difficult to take care of. abd I am finding outthat there are many ways to keep them alive. The one thing they all have in common, keep water very clean, and temp very close on water changes, and keep the ph the same