Heating water in 2- 55 gal trash cans

maybemark

Hello all
It's been quite some time that i have been on this wall.
I want to start on saying you all that helped me get my Lochinvar boiler and domestic hot water tank in.. the hot water for the shower is great, I;ve never had such low bills from the gas company, I still haven't had the boiler in the winter, i have a good feeling it will work out fine.
I have a new idea.
I have fish tanks, a few of them. I will be starting a new tank with a fresh water fish called a discus. I am told it is a very difficult fish, to be happy and alive.
It takes about 85 degree water, for it to live in. These fish has to have the water changed daily for a few months. Where is all going, why not use my boiler to keep that water 85 degrees, verses those submersible aquarium tanks. Those heaters cost alot for heating my fish tanks.
My thought are, get 3/8" flexible copper, that comes coiled together then take the coil and pull on them to stretch the coil, enough to fit in the trash can. One end goes to the supply of the boiler, other goes to the retun. I imagine it's better keeping the system in parallel, verses series.

3 things i don't know and I hope to hear back from you guys
!, will it work? or am i just dreaming. If you have better ideas, my ears are open.

2. should this be a separate zone, with a pump and a waterstat

3 should it be connected to the domestic in and out, or a seperate series.
remember, I need this to work all year round.


Any idea are much appreciated, if you thinks no way will it work, please tell me.
if you can add to my thoughts, that's great also
thanks in advance
Mark

Jamie Hall

Sounds like they are fussy critters. I'll take my cats and horses -- or outdoor goldfish -- any day!

A few thoughts. The first is that there's no good reason it shouldn't work, but you will probably have to fuss with the flow rate a good bit. For which reason I would want it piped as a separate zone, just like any other zone, with its own pump and waterstat and some flow control valves.

A much more important thought, however. That copper will have forming oils on it. It may not be much, but fish are fussy -- I do know that -- and that means that before you use it you will want to get the outside of that coil of pipe really truly thoroughly horribly obsessively clean. I would suggest perhaps trisodium phosphate if you can get it, followed by Boraxo, and using a scrubby sort of sponge (and gloves, please) on it.

Gordy

Why not use the potential HX in the aquarium itself say in the pebble bed. Obviously sterility still applies, but you eliminate the trash can step. Some experimentation on flow rates, and water supply temps with an empty aquarium ( with out fish)would have to take place to determine how stable the actual water would stay temp wise before adding the fish.

How many gallon aquarium?

Gordy

Sorry missed the two 55gal in the post title. One other thing if copper in direct contact with the aquarium water is an issue sleeve it with plastic tubing the snugger the fit the better. Protects copper from the water, and fish from the copper. The fish are probably more finicky about water temps, and chemistry than anything else.

Gordy

In my mind I see a storage tank of a water heater variety something with enough mass to keep that zone from short cycling. The storage temp would be dictated by what temp you would need to,supply to the aquarium HXs. The trash cans would get pretty ripe with hot water in them. Another issue would be power disruption.

SWEI

Get a HX rated for the application and pipe it as a separate zone. Program a fixed curve in the WHN -- not familiar enough with their onboard controls to know if you could trick them into managing the product temp by using a supply sensor or another DHW sensor.

hot_rod

You could use pex tube for the heat exchanger bit takes about 3 times as much. And a plastic trash can, for those low temps

Henry

As someone who has a had 7 aquariums in a dedicated room, copper is toxic to fresh water fish. I built the aquatic lab at one of the universities. The engineer had use sch 80 pvc. Unfortunatly the trout did not like the water as there were clorites given off by the pvc. So, don't use pvc.

maybemark

Henry
I hear you say, what not to use, I didn't hear what to use, do you have any suggestions.
am I hearing, my rust 90 year old gal. pipe is good for the fish, but copper is no good.
I did know that copper is bad for saltwater, I did not know it was bad for freshwater, so, I do appreciate you telling me.
what is HX? is HX tubing? can it coil and keep a shape?
Also
If I use this system on it's own stage, will it work on the summer months? I thought the outside temp sensor , would keep the boiler from coming on?

Just thing now, all my tanks have PVC going to them from the basement, I haven't had a problem so far. I'm not saying use pvc for a coil, because it won't bend.
I thought copper was the answer, but if you say my fish will die from it, then that's not the answer.
Thanks all for your comments.
Please, if someone comes up with any idea, please help, and put it on the post
Mark

maybemark

Gordy
I can not put it directly in the aquarium, it is suggested to age the water for at least 15 hours before using it. What is HX?

SWEI

HX is short for heat exchanger.

"Aging" is probably to let the chlorine outgas, which heat will accelerate.

Are you talking about maintaining the temp in the tank? That would require either an HX in the tank (like a coil of PEX as Bob suggested above) or pumping the tank water out through an external HX of some sort.

ChrisJ

I'd expect refrigeration grade copper to be oil free. Though, it's also very expensive.

The last time I bought some was from Grainger.

Gordy

as kurt suggested the hx could be in the tank or outside the tank. The copper if in the tank could be sleeved with clear vinyl tubing so no contact with water in the tank. Or use pex not sure about chlorides in either

Gordy

Another suggestion gold fish they are like billy goats drink antifreeze belch and walk away.

maybemark

Gordy, funny guy, I can dress up the goldfish to look like discus

hot_rod

A 50' coil of 1/2 pex in a plastic trash can would be plenty of heat exchange, and fairly inexpensive. I doubt the pex would have any harmful off gassing?

maybemark

when in the trash cans aging, some chhemicals need to be put in the trash can. this chemical is for removing chlorine, amonia, and other bad things for the fish, it also adds good things for the fish (good bacteria)
Kurt, thanks for explaing HX

maybemark

hot rod
pex is plastic tubing? and is it meant to take heat?

This project will I tee off the DHW supply and return?
or use another stage from the boiler?
just not sure how to trick the boiler to turn on, when it's warm outside. i thought the sensor will not let a stage turn on.

SWEI

PEX is polyethylene -- about as nonreactive as you can get, and quite affordable.

I would be a tad concerned about the EVOH barrier layer, though I know it is protected by an outer layer (PE? PEX? not 100% sure there) on both MrPEX and Uponor PEX-a tubing.

I'm still not 100% certain if you're trying to heat the tank with the fish, the aging vat, or both? Why two vats?

hot_rod

Yes pex is a plastic tube used for drinking water and heating, it can handle 180F.

You could also get some used plastic 55 drum, most are certified for food products, cost around 15 bucks around here. They are HDPE and can handle 140F without a problem.

Connect the coil of ex to the boiler, install simple stepping control to call that zone on.

SWEI

I'm wondering if the Lochinvar controls could be used to maintain setpoint in the vat or the tank, allowing the boiler to modulate and do it's thing -- especially during the non-heating season?

JStar

I like the idea of a HX and two circulators. You can cycle the boiler-side circulator between 80-90F, and the tank-side ciculator at 82-87F. I imagine that you don't want to send 180F water directly into the tank. Two circulators and two aquasats will eliminate the need for a mixing valve or holding tank.

maybemark

Kurt
I am not trying to heat the tank. I am only trying to heat the 2 plastic garbage can, that the water will stay for 15 hours, then i will take the water out of the tank, and put this ages water in the tank
JStar I was wondering , if i would need another mixing valve..
Kurt
Please correct me if i am wrong, but I thought my boiler stage, won't work with the warm to hot temp outside I thought it keeps the boiler from firing. I might be totally wrong on that

maybemark

Kurt
I am sorry to ask this, but what is EVOH?
and, can the HX be coiled and stay that way?

hot_rod

Is the boiler connected to a DHW indirect tank? If you have DHW from and indirect, just connect a ex loop right to the DHW with a small plastic or stainless circc.

That way you only circulate 140F or lower temperature to the barrel. No need to add zones or connect into the boiler loop. Still use a stepping control to turn that record pump on and off for temperature control.

maybemark

hot rod, my system has no boiler loop, it was suggested to me, from others on this site, not yo have one, I have 2 and 3" diameter pipes, before the boiler, at one time, this was a gravity system
and yes, i do have a DHW tank, it is priority on my system, and works off the sensor on the tank, to control heat.

hot_rod

Whatever is making you DHW, just use it as the heat source.

The pex loop in the barrel is circulating DHW. A tiny recirc, pump. Super simple, safe, affordable.
With a temperature control, sensor on the tank, or inside a ex tube.

maybemark

Hot rod, I don't want the domestic hot water filling the tank. What i am lookng for is the boiler or the dhw heat source to heat 2 platic garbage cans, filled with cold water and this special chemical.
I just want something I can coil to put in the trash cans

hot_rod

The DHW is not IN the drum, just inside the pex loop that is in the drum.

The water in the barrel can be whatever you want:) The pex loop is just a heat exchanger with DHW inside, fish water around it.

Theis eliminates the need to mess with a loop off the boiler.

maybemark

My mistake, I saw you wrote H & C thinking that was the domestic water.
I just got off the phone with the breeder, and now i am wondering, if i can do this at all.
I asked her about copper, she says no copper. The system before the dhw is copper, maybe what i am trying to do is not going to be of copper, but everything else is copper

SWEI

I guess I'm wondering why heat the water in the barrels at all until you transfer it to the tank? Maybe I don't understand the process...

maybemark

these fish are very difficult .
Main thing is extremely clean water
next is, keeping the ph the same from water change, which at 1st will be once a day, and 3rd
temp of the water of the change has to be very close to 85 degrees plus aging the water

hot_rod

maybemark said:

My mistake, I saw you wrote H & C thinking that was the domestic water.
I just got off the phone with the breeder, and now i am wondering, if i can do this at all.
I asked her about copper, she says no copper. The system before the dhw is copper, maybe what i am trying to do is not going to be of copper, but everything else is copper

The copper piping in the ground and in your building will have a layer of "slime" sometimes called patina inside that keeps it from leaching into the water. I think any water that is carried inside the copper will be fine. The chemicals the city adds may be more concern, unless you have well water or purchase purified water.

Where do you source the water that get put into the drums and tanks?

I have some hardy grass carp in my pond if you want to consider another species

Gordy

So Mark is this a one time shot? Fill the garbage cans with water for aquarium, and preheat that water before transfer into aquarium then the aquarium heaters take over?

maybemark

Hot rod
I have city water, and the water here is actually pretty good, but yes, it's filled with alot of chemicals.
I am so dumb, I was thinking of the copper. The domestic water going into the 2 55 gallon plastic cans is never going to go thru copper. if i end buying that plastic tubing, this water will never have any copper in it. I am just filling the piping and the tubing with the water from the boiler, then the domestic water in the 55 gal drums actually is water coming from galvanized pipe and the tubing will not be copper, will i be able to coil the pex plastic tubing?
I imagineI will put tees at the hot water tank, on the in, and out of the tank, I imagine i will need a small circulating pump, and some kind of sensor to stop the heat from raising above 85 degrees.
can i put the sensor wire, and the DHW sensor wire together ?
and how would i make it stop at 85? I imagine i will have to have some kind of control box/

Gordy
No, this is not a one time thing. Actually, the fish I am getting are called discus fish. They are one of the most diffficult fish to care for, but they are really beautiful.
when I 1st get them, i will have to do water changes every day. So, I am looking for an easy way, and ecomically way of doing this. using am aquarium heater would be very expensive.
I thought this might work, if I would know how to do it
Mark

Gordy

I have some hardy grass carp in my pond if you want to consider another species


They eat their own weight in grass every day if they are the White Armur grass carp.

hot_rod

It's all in the numbers.
Where does the water to fill the tanks come from? Will you pump it into the drum, or haul it from somewhere? Is it ambient temperature water?

A small plastic submersible pump would work to transfer it from the drum to fish bowl

How accurate does the temperature need to be? I guess the aquarium heater maintains it once in the tank.

Depending how many total gallons you need to heat, it could be less expensive to just use the electric aquarium heater. I'd Gusse you could have 500 bucks worth of tube, barrel, pumps, fittings and controls. 500 bucks may buy all the electric you need to heat the water? Sounds like a small load from ambient room temperature to 85 F

If you can put a number to the gallons needed and the temperature increase, calculate the BTU, and determine the cost with electric, or via the gas fired boiler.

maybemark

the fish tank itself is 135 gal. The fish do best from 82 - 84 degrees. I have water in the basement where i have my RO water for the other fish tank. I already have it piped up to the tanks. it is latterly within inches of the tank . The distance from the boiler to the filter room is about 30 feet, if that much.
You really think it will cost me 500 bucks for a small pump 3 sticks of 1/2" and that plastic tubing?
This way i could see it heating it up quickly, with little cost for the short time having the boiler on.
Putting in 3 300 watt aquarium heaters would take several hours to heat up 100 gallons. I would think it would be costly on my electric bill. Maybe I'm wrong
Mark

Gordy

23 bucks a month
900wattsx7hours=6300watts/1000=6.3KWx.12cents=22.68 amonth or 272.00 a year

maybemark

gordy
will the pex be able to be formed into a coil?
Do you think this is a good effecient way of heating the 100 gal of water?

maybemark

you think it will only take 1 hour to heat 100 gal by electricity?
I would have to purchase 6- 300 watt heaters, 3 for each tank