Milwaukee Area Single-pipe steam professionals reccomendations?

cubicacres

We're considering replacing our WeilMcLain EGH-85 gas steam boiler soon, and wondering if anyone would reccomend a good steam professional in our Milwaukee, WI area we could pay to asses our chimney (clay liner) & boiler setup for an objective opinion on some options. We did a radiator calculation for the 5-unit building we have the boiler in, and came up with 187,056 BTU/Hr. for all the radiators without adding any pickup factor. The 2 story 5 unit brick 1900 building has very warm 2nd floors with cooler 1st floors, so we were wondering if removing, downsizing, or getting smaller air vents on a few of the 2nd floor radiators would help, and possibly allow for a smaller EG-75 model. One radiator above the boiler room on the 1st floor apartment was removed in the past. The net AHRI rating for the EG-75 is 185,000 due to being a residential boiler with spark ignition & damper included, and EGH-85 is 182,000 without these 2 items standard, since a smaller commercial boiler. Any reccomendations for professionals & how much we can move around our boiler size would be appreciated.

Steamhead

I sometimes go out to Milwaukee, if you can't find anyone locally........ but you might see if you can get Dave "The Steam Whisperer" Bunnell to come up from Chicago.

The Steam Whisperer

Hi,
I now have technicians located north of Chicago (McHenry county) that could complete your boiler replacement. We are well into the fall rush, so it would probably be a few weeks before anyone could get there.

cubicacres

Thanks. Attatched are a few photos of our current setup: a 1984 WeilMclain EGH-85 Nat Gas single pipe steam install with 1994 block replacement, we think. Some added controls since then, with lots of rust per the photos. Replaced a few feet of near-boiler water intake piping last month. A 4,200 sq ft 2-story 5-unit brick apartment bldg, with an outside clay lined chimney and 10 yr old replacement vinyl windows. My EDR radiator survey was 187,000 without any pickup, 248,700 BTU with a .33 pickup factor. The first floor apts are ok or a little cool, the 2nd floor is too hot. any thoughts about if we could or would need to close, downsize, remove a few radiators on the 2nd floor to get a smaller boiler working ok?

Steamhead

Have any radiators been removed on the first floor?

cubicacres

Yes, it looks like one was removed on the 1st floor directly above the basement boiler room since we just see a pipe coming up from the floor and that room is the only one without a radiator in it (although it's more of a connected room with an archway to the other room with a radiator than a sealed-off room like a bedroom with only a doorway entrance). The 2nd floor has about 30-50% more BTU radiation from larger radiators than the 1st floor per may sq ft & EDR radiatior calculations, so we thought this might be why they're so hot up there compared to the 1st floor?

cubicacres

Here's my EDR sketch for each of the 5 units and my calculations.

Steamhead

So, basically 780 square feet EDR. You do not need to add anything to this figure, since the pickup factor is already included in the boiler's Net rating.

If that were my project, I'd suggest the Weil-McLain 3-80 with a power gas burner, at 867 square feet. You do hear this type of boiler running, but it should last a lot longer than the typical EGH boiler which has a tendency to sag in the middle and leak.

Here's a link to a thread where we did just that- replaced an EGH with a 3-80 using a Carlin gas burner. This lady actually shows off her boiler to guests, she likes it so well:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/148298/atmospheric-out-power-burner-in

vaporvac

And here I thought I was the only one!

cubicacres

All 5 apartment plus the front hall total 780 Square feet of radiation from all the radiators per the rating charts. 780x240=187,200 BTU, so about 187,000x1.33 piping pickup for a NET rating of 248,976 BTU or so? If I missed something in this calculation, please let me know-I'm getting conflicting advice from different contractors about which numbers to use. It would be great to downsize from our old Weil Mclain EGH-85, but I want to have enough to produce steam in all 5 units here in Milwaukee, WI on the colder days. The new EGH-85 series 5 is rated smaller than our current EGH-85 series 3, further complicating the issue. Different Weil Mclain employees I talk to say it's the same output, just a sticker change to reflect federal rating shanges, others say the boiler sections/burners have been reduced for smaller out put so I need an EGH-95 for about the same output as the old EGH-85 we had. Any thoughts about how flexible the BTU output is and how low I can go, or if I need to use the DOE Gross Output or NET AHRI ratings to size the new boiler properly?

cubicacres

Thanks. I'd like to know more about your 380 reccomendation given that it seems rater for a larger installation. What are the things you like about it, and what noises does it make?

Dave0176

cubicacres said:

All 5 apartment plus the front hall total 780 Square feet of radiation from all the radiators per the rating charts. 780x240=187,200 BTU, so about 187,000x1.33 piping pickup for a NET rating of 248,976 BTU or so? If I missed something in this calculation, please let me know-I'm getting conflicting advice from different contractors about which numbers to use. It would be great to downsize from our old Weil Mclain EGH-85, but I want to have enough to produce steam in all 5 units here in Milwaukee, WI on the colder days. The new EGH-85 series 5 is rated smaller than our current EGH-85 series 3, further complicating the issue. Different Weil Mclain employees I talk to say it's the same output, just a sticker change to reflect federal rating shanges, others say the boiler sections/burners have been reduced for smaller out put so I need an EGH-95 for about the same output as the old EGH-85 we had. Any thoughts about how flexible the BTU output is and how low I can go, or if I need to use the DOE Gross Output or NET AHRI ratings to size the new boiler properly?

Your numbers correspond perfectly with the EG75.

Dave0176

Check out the numbers. chrisJ said the sqFt of steam on the EG75 of 750 is a typo and puts out 771sq ft.

Dave0176

Now as far as the install goes, if I were installing this boiler Id use a 5" drop header with two 3" boiler risers, for the near boiler piping. Others might use a 4" but Id use the 5".

Steamhead

cubicacres said:

Thanks. I'd like to know more about your 380 reccomendation given that it seems rater for a larger installation. What are the things you like about it, and what noises does it make?

I prefer the 3-80 to the EG/EGH boilers for several reasons:
1- Fewer section joints, so less chance of a leak. Remember, W-M uses elastomer seals on its boilers instead of push nipples;
2- Larger outlet tappings, so in this size only one riser to the header is needed, simplifying piping;
3- Waterline is higher off the ground, which can help avoid turning a wet return into a dry return;
4- All controls, gauges etc. are installed at the front of the boiler where they are more easily seen and serviced;
5- If it ever soots up (unlikely, but happens once in a great while with any type of gas boiler) it's much easier to clean out;
6- Does not take up as much floor space in a small boiler room;
7- Possible upgrade to lo-hi-lo firing with proper control of combustion air supply, when they start making 2-stage burners in that size.

What does it sound like? Well, if you've ever heard an oil-fired boiler in that size running, that's what this one sounds like. It's the sound of the burner fan with a trace of combustion noise. I don't find that objectionable, but it might be a bit much if the boiler is installed right next to a bedroom or studio.

cubicacres

Thanks. We're also looking at the Utica PEG99EID (782sq ft) or similar Dunkirk PSB9D (767 sq ft) boilers that have push nipples. Any thoughts on these models compared to a WeilMclain EG-75 or 3-80 for our 780 sq ft building? The Utica has stainless steel vs Titanium burners on the Dunkirk, but I don't know if that matters if they can both be cleaned out regularly. The Utica was a little higher-rated for efficiency at 83.4% vs. Dunkirk's 82.7%-The manufacturer's tech support rep. thought it was just the layout difference, but basically the same boiler.

If we're a bit low on the sq ft heating capacity, would careful insulation, generous main venting with slower radiator venting be able to cover the extra 10-30 sq ft or so? Some contractors have told us if we don't get at least the 780sq ft (or Gross output with our .33 pickup factor) exactly, we'll have no steam at all in the whole system, and all radiators will be cold, shutting down the whole building. This seems scary, but most others we talked to said a little under (10-30 sq ft or 5-10,000 Gross output BTUs) is ok if the next choice is 100 sq ft or 20,000+ BTUs too large.

Steamhead

I'd steer clear of that Dunkirk. Yes, it's relatively cheap, but it's very difficult to make this boiler series produce dry steam. We've found that the minimum header specs don't work so well- upgrading to the next larger header size helps a lot, but that's still a lot of capacity for 2-1/2" side steam outlets.

Same issue with the Utica. The outlets on this one are 2-inch.

In both boiler series, the smaller models work better because you're not trying to cram so much steam thru those small outlets, so the exit velocity is lower and they're less likely to pull water out with the steam.

The 3-80 with its 4-inch steam outlet sidesteps the outlet velocity problem, as do the 3-inch outlets on the EG/EGH.

Hap_Hazzard

Dave0176 said:

Now as far as the install goes, if I were installing this boiler Id use a 5" drop header with two 3" boiler risers, for the near boiler piping. Others might use a 4" but Id use the 5".

I agree.

The purpose of a header is to decrease the steam velocity to allow suspended water droplets to fall out of the stream under their own weight. To decrease the velocity, the cross-sectional area of the header has to be greater than the sum of the cross-sectional areas of the boiler risers.

3" sched. 40 pipe has a cross-sectional area of 7.39 in².
(So the sum of the two risers' areas is 14.78 in².)
4" sched. 40 pipe has a cross-sectional area of 12.73 in².
5" sched. 40 pipe has a cross-sectional area of 20.0 in².

So it looks like a 4" header doesn't quite cut it, but in some cases the velocity in the boiler risers is already low enough to deliver very dry steam, but I have to wonder if a real header is even required in these cases, other than allowing the two risers to come together. If the risers are tall enough, and the velocity is low enough, all the water should fall out.

Dave0176

Hatterasguy said:

Hap_Hazzard said:

So it looks like a 4" header doesn't quite cut it, but in some cases the velocity in the boiler risers is already low enough to deliver very dry steam, but I have to wonder if a real header is even required in these cases, other than allowing the two risers to come together. If the risers are tall enough, and the velocity is low enough, all the water should fall out.

The beauty of keeping the size of the boiler down:

The 63-06 gives a flow rate of 243 lb/hr. That's 19 ft/sec. @ 1 psi in 4".

More that satisfactory. 5" is a waste of money.

I hear ya, I just prefer to keep it around 13-15 fps. I do admit the 5" header costs double to make but when a job of this size and money is at play, $600 bucks more for material doesn't seem like a lot to me. To a homeowner on the other hand thats a lot of money.

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

Also realize that the introduction of the drop header puts you way ahead of 98% of all people doing steam, including most on this site.

Hat, I realize that you don't care, but that is a rather insulting remark as this site is for helping and not ridiculing people.

vaporvac

I think we can all agree that a drop header puts one ahead of 98% of the installs HOs come here questioning. Many are happy if it heats at all. It's clear most installers don't even adhere to the manufacturer's minimum specs. It seems most here are constantly trying to up their game even if the approach differs.

RobG

Yes, I am one of the "Few Good Men", not so sure about you though. I don't believe in ridicule, stating ones opinion is fine if it is done tactfully and with good intentions, however berating people you do not even know, people that have come here for help, is not. Do you just come here to try and show that you are the smartest kid on the block? If you already know everything why not just start your own website and leave us alone?

Steamhead

Hatterasguy said:

Additionally, the 3-80 is so huge that it gives a pickup factor of 48% which virtually guarantees that you'll have to downfire it in some fashion. You spent all that money for all that cast iron and you certainly cannot utilize it.

But, with its power burner, the 3-80 can be down-fired much more effectively while still maintaining good combustion. It's true this model weighs several hundred pounds more than the comparable EGH boiler, but I would say heavier cast-iron means longer life.

Hap_Hazzard

Hatterasguy said:

RobG, I realize that the truth always hurts.

Did you ever see the movie "A few good men" with Jack Nicholson? It's really perfect for you.

Everybody likes to quote Colonel Jessup, but they don't seem to remember that he ended up in the brig. The truth didn't set him free, did it?

Hap_Hazzard

I like a spirited debate as much as the next guy, but this crosses the line for me.

In situations like this you can say what you feel like saying, what you feel justified in saying, or what will produce the outcome you desire. Which one of these did you choose?

Rich_49

RobG said:

Hatterasguy said:

Also realize that the introduction of the drop header puts you way ahead of 98% of all people doing steam, including most on this site.

Hat, I realize that you don't care, but that is a rather insulting remark as this site is for helping and not ridiculing people.

Rob ,
I know you have serious issues with mine and Hatteras ' styles . I fail to see where Hat insulted this individual and actually saw a compliment within his words .
I might add that maybe you should comment less on mine and Hat's posts and spend your time assisting as we are attempting to do . Who appointed you moderator and when did that happen . We both offer folks good advice and occasionally it may be blunt and to the point in an attempt to waste less time bantering about dealing with nonsense in my case and I believe Hat's also .
Pointing at the problems you have with others while calling them names when confronted has become quite the political stance nowadays , I understand but it really is unbecoming . Maybe GLAAD has a job for you . They seem very adept at being bullies and silencing others as if theirs is the only opinion that should be heard and no debating their stance is allowed .

Now let's all get back to HEATING HELP and leave the fight for free speech to the ACLU and SCOTUS .

cubicacres

All that spirited discussion has got me interested in drop headers for drier steam now :-)

Is that simply the near-boiler piping that has a drop before heading up to the main steam line risers, like in Pete C's post with 2 JPEG pics below from 2010?

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/129630/drop-header-on-a-steam-boiler

Does this keep more moisture out of the steam for drier steam in the system? Does that mean lower corrosion, higher heating efficiencies?

Fred

Yes, the Risers come up out of the boiler, at least as high as the Mfg. recommends, higher if possible, take a 90 degree turn, take another 90 degree turn downward and can drop down to within inches of the top of the boiler, ( if the headroom is needed) or anywhere between the top of the boiler and the top of the boiler riser. Your mains are then tied into that dropped header. It is the best option for getting dry steam. Is it more effecient, I would say the drier the steam in the system the more effecient the steam movement and heat transfer. Does it mean lower corrosion, I doubt that is reduces corrosion significantly relative to a good standard header. Others may have an opinion on that but I doubt anyone could say it gave the piping a longer life. It certainly doesn't change the corrosion of the boiler. Very Low use of fresh/make-up water, maybe some water conditioners and a good maintenance program are you best bets for extended boiler life.

cubicacres

Thanks for all the great advice! So to sum it up, are these the things to keep in mind for a great, long-lasting boiler install for our 780 sq ft EDR 5-unit building?

1. Work with a knowledgeable single-pipe steam professional
2. Use a good quality boiler (any thoughts when selecting similar size header pipe diameter & heating capacity boilers across various manufacturers?, Push nipples in blocks are better than seals, etc.)
3. Maintain it regularly (annual tune-ups, and consider water treatment like steamaster tablets to reduce rust buildup in the system)
3. Size it correctly for EDR Sq Ft (pickup factors debateable on this site from 0-33%, it seems :-)
4. Install it with something to minimize adding fresh water over time (a generous reservior pipe, or something else along with a water meter to measure intake and fix leaks as detected?)
5. Consider a dirt seperator (to minimize minerals coming in the in intake water)
6. Consider a Spirovent or something else? (to minimize oxygen in the intake water)
7. Use 2 larger drop-headers of 4in or more to exceed the total diameter of the risers.
8. Insulate well
9. Vent the mains well (faster), radiators slower
10. Consider vari-vents for tennant's individual comfort levels in warm 2nd floor rooms. Keep the thermostat in the cooler room on the 1st floor.
11. Outside sensor & thermostat upgrade reccomended with the new system install? 1984 LCD thermostat & missing sensor dial currenly on the wall.
12. Low-water cut-off probe-type ok with less blow-down vs. float style LWC to keep water within the system? I suspect the probe installed in 2009 was still being blown-down each week as if it were still a float-ball type LWC with the previous owner, increasing our fresh-water intake & rusting the block faster.
13. Anything else I missed you'd reccomend we consider?

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

RobG said:

Yes, I am one of the "Few Good Men", not so sure about you though. I don't believe in ridicule, stating ones opinion is fine if it is done tactfully and with good intentions, however berating people you do not even know, people that have come here for help, is not. Do you just come here to try and show that you are the smartest kid on the block? If you already know everything why not just start your own website and leave us alone?

You think we could take a look at your statement that you "don't believe in ridicule" for a moment?

You recently sent a PM to Rich that flagrantly violates your basic premise above. How about I post it for all to see how tactful you are and your "good intentions"?

.

Shame on Rich for passing along a PRIVATE message. Feel free to post it though as most people will get a kick out of it. I will request that you asterisk out the colorful words as a courtesy to others. Have a nice day, I know I am.

Dave0176

cubicacres said:

Thanks for all the great advice!
2. Use a good quality boiler (any thoughts when selecting similar size header pipe diameter & heating capacity boilers across various manufacturers?, Push nipples in blocks are better than seals, etc.)

Don't get to crazy on this subject, I've never pulled a boiler due to a premature failed seal. Some guys on here will tell you rubber sealed boilers are garbage, but I'll tell you my experiences, I've pulled many Weil McLain boilers out of 30+ year vintage, none with seal leakage, most with waterline or some type of rot.

cubicacres

Any thoughts on buying a boiler online from a place like supplyhouse.com, units.com, amazon, etc? It's suprising what you can buy online these days. If the manufactuer's warranty will be honored with a local HVAC install according to the manuf. instructions (+ maybe some improvements in header size & drop-headers), are there any hidden risks for this? Avoiding some markups on a boiler seems like a benefit of buying direct, and paying for time & materials with a contractor unless there's something I'm missing.

BobC

If your going to install the boiler yourself that will work but if you use a contractor to do the installation you will be on your own if issues arise. Any problems will soon end up on your plate. The manufacturer will probably walk away from the warranty and the installer may walk away from any responsibility for problems with a low overhead job.

Bob