Fill valve? What kind do you like?

ChrisJ

I need to move my fill valve as the flue pipe is almost touching the handle now and I don't care for that my self.

I installed a 1/4 turn ball valve last time but that seems very touchy and a little hard to control especially if you want to add very slow while firing the boiler.

I'm considering a gate valve this time around.

Thoughts? (Do they fail a lot etc)

KC_Jones

What about both? Use a gate valve first to throttle the flow and a ball valve near the boiler for filling. You can set the fill rate with the gate valve and never touch it again. When you need to fill just open the ball valve all the way and let 'er rip so to speak. I agree trying to throttle a ball valve is touchy at best and really not what they are designed for.

bob young

GATE VALVES DO NOT HOLD TIGHT. ball valve is choice of experts. globes need washers from time to time. bALL VALVE BEST BET. INSTALL AUTO FEEDER.

JUGHNE

I think the old school thought was to use a globe valve for throttling water. The theory was that a partially closed gate would develop problems as the sliding gate is loose inside and eventually would rattle itself apart. I realize this is for occasional use and that may not be a factor.

However gate valves become a curse (for me anyway) in the near future. Eventually the gate will not give you 100% shut off and you could have overfill issues. I would put the ball valve first then a good globe valve for throttling downstream. FWIW

Fred

Interesting, I use a full port ball valve and have never had a problem throttling it down, even to a trickle.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Interesting, I use a full port ball valve and have never had a problem throttling it down, even to a trickle.

I haven't had a problem either, but it seems like the wrong use of the valve and I don't dare ask my wife to add water, ever.

Was just throwing something up the flag pole to see whole salutes it. I need to move the piping and do some changes so now is the time.

An autofeeder is out at least for now. I dislike them too much though I do wonder if there's some kind of alarm commonly used for a LWCO setup to let you know if it's low? Commercial or otherwise? I never let my water level drop more than a 1/4" so it would not normally go off unless something bad happened.

bob young

BALL VALVE best thing that ever happened in piping trade. positive shut off, full port flow. throttling i never had a problem. gates, globes & butterfliy valves have their place but ball valves are gtreat. first time i saw them i was a pipefitter building submarines at old beth steel/ gen. dynamics shipyard in quincy, mass in mid sixties. to say i was impressed is an understatement. gate valves on domestic water mains not holding tight had plqauged nyc plumbers since like forever. ball valves ended that little inconvienience forever !!!!! yep, i love them. still got a few jenkens gates & globes left . use 'em for paperweights. no one gets them !!!!

ChrisJ

bob young said:

BALL VALVE best thing that ever happened in piping trade. positive shut off, full port flow. throttling i never had a problem. gates, globes & butterfliy valves have their place but ball valves are gtreat. first time i saw them i was a pipefitter building submarines at old beth steel/ gen. dynamics shipyard in quincy, mass in mid sixties. to say i was impressed is an understatement. gate valves on domestic water mains not holding tight had plqauged nyc plumbers since like forever. ball valves ended that little inconvienience forever !!!!! yep, i love them. still got a few jenkens gates & globes left . use 'em for paperweights. no one gets them !!!!

Do you feel modern ball valves are lacking in quality compared to the early days?

vaporvac

Good question @chrisj. The recently installed ball valves on my water lines are SO HARD to turn. I almost have to swing on them. Folks recommend turning them every once in a while, but I need a tall ladder to reach mine and there would be quite a few if I replaced all my gate valves. I refurbished one old gate valve for use as my boiler refill valve and so far so good, but now you have me worried.
Actually, i think I have globe valves.

bob young

ChrisJ , some are better than others , no doubt about that. can't go wrong with watts. or apollo. you can go for big bucks for more sophisticated rated ball valves. the garden variety serves our purposes just fine , potable water or hydronics. more or less nothing changed , very simply design, very few malfunctions in fifty years that i have been using them. its all good, bro.

bob_46

YOU NEVER throttle a gate valve it should be 100% open or 100% closed. A globe valve is good for throttling but then Chris you have to decide which way to install it. Do you put city water on top of the disc or on the bottom? If you put city pressure under the disc ,then you have boiler water on top soo the packing is exposed to higher temperature and so is the stem. The stem may grow do to the higher temperature and make the valve leak by. If you put city pressure on top the packing is exposed to the higher pressure all the time. If you put city pressure on top the pressure is trying to push the disc open. If you put city pressure under the disc it tends to hold the disc against the seat and it also allows you to repack the valve when its closed and there will be little pressure on the packing. Theoretically you could rebuild the globe vale forever . I have been in the pipe trade longer than ball valves. As far as i'm concerned the jury is still out on the longevity of these new fangled ball valves. So, are you going to pop for the globe or stick with a non-rebuildable ball . Of course a ball is about $6.00 and will probably last 30 years and you won't have to decide which way to install it.

JUGHNE

Such a dilemma!!, you could put a ball valve on each side of the globe to protect it from high temp.
I use mainly Watts ball valve. The yellow handles are full flow but are from China? The green handle valve is not full flow but you can see it is better quality, (just by weight alone). (Italy??). But for your purpose of filling you probably don't need the full flow port.

I use the green handle for maybe main water service where I hope to never have to change it or some similar situation.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

An autofeeder is out at least for now. I dislike them too much though I do wonder if there's some kind of alarm commonly used for a LWCO setup to let you know if it's low? Commercial or otherwise? I never let my water level drop more than a 1/4" so it would not normally go off unless something bad happened.

Any LWCO that can turn on an auto-feeder could turn on an alarm instead.

ChrisJ

Hap_Hazzard said:

ChrisJ said:

An autofeeder is out at least for now. I dislike them too much though I do wonder if there's some kind of alarm commonly used for a LWCO setup to let you know if it's low? Commercial or otherwise? I never let my water level drop more than a 1/4" so it would not normally go off unless something bad happened.

Any LWCO that can turn on an auto-feeder could turn on an alarm instead.

So I just need to find a 24VAC bell or something?
I was wondering if there's a standard or something used on commercial boilers.

Jamie Hall

Second on Bob's comment: do not use a gate valve for throttling. They are built to be either fully closed or fully open. At any in-between setting, the gate itself is lifted -- slightly -- off the seat and will vibrate -- also slightly -- which over time will ruin the seat and the valve won't shut off.

The best valve for throttling is a globe type. Ball valves can also be used, of course, but most of them are only quarter turn so getting a precise setting can be a little tricky. As has been said, they come in all flavours from absolute junk to really beautiful. So do globes for that matter.

Any valve should be exercised from time to time, lest you discover that when you need it to operate it won't.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

So I just need to find a 24VAC bell or something?

Not even. The contacts are totally separate, so the LWCO just acts as a switch. The device (auto-feeder/alarm) can have its own power source. As long as the voltage and current don't exceed what the switch is rated at it can be whatever you want it to be.

ChrisJ said:

I was wondering if there's a standard or something used on commercial boilers.

I suspect there is, but I haven't seen one. LWCO IOMs usually say something like, "provides contacts for optional low-water alarm" (Hydrolevel SafGard), or "all models include a provision for adding an alarm or automatic water feeder" (McDonnell & Miller Series PSE-800).

I'd imagine something like this should work: http://www.supplyhouse.com/RCT-Technologies-AG-9100-External-Audible-Visual-Remote-Alarm, but don't get all excited just because it's 12-24 VAC and will work with your burner control supply. I wouldn't buy any alarm without hearing it first.

Dave in QCA

I just read through this and so I know I'm repeating a lot of what has been said. Gate valves and ball valves are intended to allow shutting off a line that needs full unrestricted flow when open. While throttling is a possibility, it is a little difficult, especially when you cant see the flow, and while any person with a mechanical knowhow would not have difficulty, another person might think they just barely cracked the valve, but in fact had a LOT of flow.
Globe valves on the other hand are not designed for full flow. They are designed to be in the off position most of the time and opened as needed with the ability to easily throttle.
Given the unreliability and wear factors for both globe and gate valves, using both a ball valve and a globe valve would give you the belt and suspenders protection that you probably want.
When I do blowdowns, I manually put the water line back where it belongs. I do have an auto fill, a VXT that has a meter readout of what was added. Last season the total was 4 gallons.

Fred

I'm assuming most of that 4 gallons of added water was the result of blowdowns?? In reality, about the only time you really need a tight adjustment on water flow into the boiler is while skimming it. Given that, you can throttle about any valve down to get the outbound flow you want by visually watching the water stream out of the skim port. I still like the ball valve because of its reliability.

Dave in QCA

Fred, it probably mostly was the result of blowdowns. I try to manually refill to NWL. But, I may have blown down the mud leg a few times without remembering to do so. Using SteamMaster tablets I have found that there is no sediment in the LWCO float chambers and by the end of the season I had decreased frequency to 2 month intervals. The boiler water content for the WM 680 on steam is 54 gallons. The system is very tight. No drips. Holds vacuum for a few hours, but not indefinitely. I assume that is due to the check valve or the valve packing, which I tightened a while back, but may need it again. Of course there are two "packless" type valves and they could be the culprit. We've got 31 rads online at present. Will probably add 8 more with an EDR of ~440 for the garage building someday.

BobC

I've used the Steamaster tablets since having my boiler installed a couple of years ago and the water shows zero signs of sediment.

Bob