Looking for Steam Expert In Brooklyn

homer2101

Got a lot of great advice last time I posted here some months ago, so:

We're searching for a steam expert in Brooklyn, New York, who can figure out why we're getting water hammer in our steam heat system, and hopefully fix it and whatever other problems there may be.

So far we've been variously told that:
(a) Steam is supposed to hammer;
(b) We should add bigger radiators to act as condensate reservoirs;
(c) We should switch to hot water for heat;
(d) The horizontal runs to the radiators buried inside the floors might be sagging; and
(e) The mains in the basement are incorrectly pitched.

I have read many recommendations for Gateway Plumbing and Heating, but they said that they are booked solid for the next several months.

Has anyone heard anything about Absolute Mechanical, A Real Good Plumber, or Vigilant Plumbing and Heating as far as troubleshooting steam heat goes?

Absolute Mechanical has four posted reviews, and all of those read like marketing copy. A Real Good Plumber has almost no really useful reviews. Both have a lot of nifty stuff on their websites, and folk from both made some posts on this board, but it all dates from 2014 or earlier. I've spoken with several prior clients of Absolute Mechanical and A Real Good Plumber, and both came highly recommended from both individual and corporate clients, but those all involved boiler replacements or conversions at the outset and all of them involved hot water heat rather than steam. Vigilant, unlike the other two, has lots of reviews online, but a lot of them are rather negative even given the negative bias of online customer reviews.


As background:

We have an IN-7 Burnham Independence, rated at 542 EDR of steam, installed by the previous owner somewhen around 2004 judging by the old inspection stickers. It supplies about 241 EDR of assorted radiation across three floors, split about evenly between two 2" mains, each about 20' in length. The original house probably had 500-ish EDR of radiation judging by the size of the remaining large radiators, but it's been mostly replaced with baseboards and slenderized radiators over the years. On the whole, it heats well and evenly, and the gas bill is quite low given that it's an uninsulated house with air freely circulating through the interior walls.

System worked quietly until two years ago, when we renovated the basement. In the process, we had the boiler moved about six feet from its original position. The general contractor said it was possible, and at the time we had no reason to question his judgment, since he was also the only general contractor interviewed who had not said he could move the boiler across the basement, put in a new hot water heat system, or place the house onto steel I-beams.

After the relocation, system worked fine for the first month and a half of the heating system. Then we began to get increasingly-severe water hammer at the top of the riser feeding the front of the house (red star on diagram) and the end of its associated main, and then at the tops of the other risers. Apologies for the awful drawing:

Diagram of System: http://i.imgur.com/JNx3Cuy.png

Near-Boiler Piping: http://i.imgur.com/ORRJvy0.jpg?1

The plumber who had done the relocation said that: (a) steam heat is supposed to hammer, and (b) that we should drain the boiler and allow the auto-feeder to refill it whenever the hammering started. That would fix the water hammer for two to four weeks, but seemed like a workaround rather than a permanent solution. The original plumber made it fairly clear he wasn't going to do any work on the system, even though we were willing to pay for it. The general contractor swears they did not move any pipes or alter the near-boiler piping. I wasn't present for that part of the work and have no first-hand knowledge of what was and was not changed, but some pipes in the basement came from foundries no longer in business, while others have the same mark as pipes sold in Home Depot, so at minimum someone somewhen fairly recently had replaced some of the basement steam pipes.

Our current plumber has: (1) unclogged the pressuretrol tube and set the pressuretrol cut-off to 2PSI, (2) added a pipe for fully draining the boiler, and (3) cleaned the boiler using two bottles of boiler cleaning compound. Adding boiler cleaning compound made the system hammer at every elbow, which was absolutely awesome. He said that probably the near-boiler piping and pitch of the front main is incorrect, but he doesn't do boiler piping anymore and suggested we find a professional to do the work.

Following advice from Lost Art of Steam Heat, I added a full port ball valve off the pressuretrol tapping and skimmed the boiler through it for two five-hour sessions -- the actual skim port is still covered by the factory knock-out. I also replaced the Maid-O-Mist D vents on the big radiators with Hoffman 40s, which slightly reduced the hammering and seems to have evened out the heat through the house, and further turned down the pressuretrol using a 5PSI gauge.

The system can currently operate for up to 2 months until the water hammer becomes intolerable. Even during 'normal' operation, the radiator at the top of the front riser (blue star) will sound like a boiling kettle when the boiler starts after downtime and make sloshing sounds during the first off short-cycle. It will then heat quietly. Water hammer will occur at the top of the front riser (red star), top of the rear riser feeding a second-floor baseboard (green star on far right), and end of the front main (green star on far left). Eventually we also get water hammer at the top of the long run-out and riser feeding a little baseboard on the third floor (green star on bottom). Sometimes there'll be a sound of something metallic sliding up the front main from the boiler towards the riser.

If I shut off the radiator at the top of the front riser (red star), then we get water hammer on the level of the two second-floor baseboards below it. I can't tell whether it occurs inside the riser or the buried run-outs.

I can somewhat delay or diminish the water hammer by lowering the water level inside the boiler, but that seems like a terrible idea.

An additional concern is that every two weeks or so we hear the water auto-feeder cut in. I haven't been able to find any steam coming from the exposed pipes or air vents.

Anyways.

Apologies for the long and probably useless wall of text, and many thanks for all the help!

BobC

The boiler piping is not correct and they should have connected each steam main to the boiler header independently.

I don't see any main air vents, are there any air vents in the basement and were there any before the contractor moved things.

I suspect the slope of the mains may have been changed when the work was done and there is probably water pooling in the pipe - steam crossing pooled water loves to bang. Go over every inch of each main with a level to see if the pipes are pitched correctly. Then stretch a string tautly along each main to see if there are any dips in the mains.

Bob

homer2101

There are two main vents -- one on top of each of the two equalizers next to the boiler. Labled 'V' on the diagram. Can be seen in top-right of the photo, on top of the equalizer. Shaped like a cat food tin, so think they're Gortons. Will get a ladder and check tomorrow -- kids already asleep and all that.

No main vents anywhere else at the moment. Not sure if there were other main vents in the basement. I only became involved after all the work was done and after we started getting water hammer in the middle of the night.

Went over all of the mains I could reach with a level, and all but two sections seemed to be properly pitched toward the boiler. The run to the equalizer nearest the front (blue star) is pitched toward the main and not the equalizer, so it's probably not draining much condensate. The front main that feeds all of the front of the house is almost level once it enters the boiler room, with barely any pitch. There are a lot of fittings on the main -- unions and couplings and Ts. Is there a way to check for sag around them?

On that note, I confused red and blue in the first post; been fixed now.

Burnham calls for a 3" header for IN-7; current header is 2". Not sure if it matters.

If the problem is with the piping, then why does draining the boiler and then filling it to the manufacturer-specified level temporarily fix it? Is it just a lot of questionable stuff coming together and exacerbated by the piping?

jonny88

Absolute is a fantastic company and you could not pick better.You got a bullheaded tee on your header which is a no-no.Call Absolute you will not be disappointed.Don't believe everything you read on the internet

BobC

You said they added chemicals to the boiler to clean it out, has the boiler been skimmed recently? If there is oil in the water that makes everything worse, a proper skimming takes hours, if you have a skim port you can do it yourself.The fact it quiets down when its drained tells me the boiler may need a good skimming.

Have you checked the radiators to make sure they are pitched towards the supply pipe? There should be a little pitch, 1/8 to 1/4" sb plenty.

Bob

KC_Jones

Do you know if this is a counterflow or parallel flow system? A parallel flow will have a main runout and the then after the last radiator the pipe will turn down and return to the boiler. If you have counterflow it will not have that return pipe. Judging by what I see in the boiler picture it appears to be a counterflow system, but that picture is a bit narrow. If it is indeed counterflow there is more wrong in that piping than just what is shown in the manual. Check your copy of the Lost Art and look at page 83 and the diagram at the top. I see a vent in that picture also that for the life of me I can't figure any reason for it being there. Do you have any vents at the end of the mains? I see a few "odd" sized vents on some of you emitters. A Gorton D on a 12 EDR is a huge vent for such a small emitter. You don't list any vents on the convectors is that correct? It sounds like classic wet steam and bad pitch issues. Have you checked the pitch on all emitters? Bob already mentioned checking pitch on pipes and string lines. These are simple things you could do that could either narrow down a problem or eliminate possibilities. Okay you replied before I could post. Those "main vents" are completely in the wrong place and doing nothing. They should be at the end of the main not where they are. Is the boiler taking on water through an automatic water feeder after you drain and refill? If it is what could be happening is you are putting more and more water into the system and eventually it starts hammering again (that's just a guess). I should add you should absolutely STOP that practice. The constant fresh water will destroy the boiler in short order. You want as little fresh water going into the boiler as possible.

STEAM DOCTOR

Near boiler piping is bad.
1. IN7 needs a 3" header at a MINIMUM.
2. The horizontal pipe above the boiler seems to be pitched toward the left(hard to tell from picture). If that's the case, then there is trapped water at the far left of that pipe. Absolutely will cause banging. If the pipe is pitched toward the right, then ideally it should be one or two pipe sizes larger. Counter flow piping always needs to big bigger then parallel flow piping.
3. As mentioned by other posters, the main vent in the picture, is useless.
4. As mentioned, you might need a good skimming.
5. Obviously, some piping was changed. The boiler was moved. The working assumption, is that the new piping was done incorrectly. Sad but true.

STEAM DOCTOR

You also have a bullhead tee at far right of header

nicholas bonham-carter

Even though the water is probably still oily from the recent work, and is therefore a candidate for a good skimming, I would still change the pipes above the boiler now before the onset of cold weather first, and skim later.
As noted, this counter flow system will need substantial venting at the ends of all the mains just before the pipes turn up to feed the radiators.
Before this is done, put some masking tape on the mains, so that with a magnetic level, you can put arrows on each section of pipe, showing the direction of pitch. I suspect you will see some arrows pointing towards each other.
Make sure the mains are well supported from the ceiling, before any of this piping is cut out for replacement, to avoid any pitch changes.
Put a vaporstat on the boiler to limit the pressure to a few ounces, verified with a good low pressure gauge (0-3 psi). This gauge will show you when you have enough main venting.
When you have good dry steam flowing through proper piping, you could investigate a two-stage gas valve, controlled by the vaporstat. Insulate the pipes when all the piping has been done.
Remember that good steam mechanics will start getting busy as the temperature drops, so best to pull the trigger now on this.--NBC

Dave0176

The near boiler piping is ALL WRONG. Since this boiler is oversized Id prefer to run a 4" drop header to help slow the steam down. Now since it is a counterflow system both mains must return condensate to the boiler in the opposite direction of the steam flow. One main looks to drip into the equalizer, the other main drips right into the out rushing steam from the faux header. Both mains need large main venting at the end of the runs.

That's the near boiler piping issues, I also see various convectors and baseboard radiation, most of this is only recommended for use with two pipe steam, so really I think they should have been dripped into a wet return to avoid massive water hammer issuess.

A company very familiar with steam should be able to reconize and suggest and make the proper repairs.

I just hate going over the Hudson otherwise I'd come check it out.

homer2101

This is a single-pipe, counterflow system. Think previous owner said her grandfather had it retrofitted onto the house.

So correcting the piping and pitch of the front main should fix the hammering?

KC_Jones :

Auto-feeder triggers about three minutes after the low water cutoff turns off the boiler. Low water cutoff triggers when there's no water in the water level gauge glass. When draining the boiler, I don't use the auto-feeder, because the auto-feeder turns off if power to the boiler is turned off, and it seems a bit dangerous to empty a boiler while it can potentially fire.

Before it was cleaned (the drained water with chemicals looked like chocolate milk), occasionally I'd come down to find the low water cutoff triggered, and no water in the water level glass. But the water level usually wouldn't rise that much after the auto-feeder was done filling the boiler, and we'd get water hammer even after I adjusted the water level back to the factory-specified level.

I'm concerned there might be a small crack above the waterline or something, since the auto-feeder tends to occasionally cut in every three or four weeks or so regardless of water hammer.

STEAM DOCTOR :

The header is pitched to the right. The pseudo-header above it I think is pitched to the left, so the wrong way, but only slightly.

nicholas bonham-carter:

Will make sure whoever works on this thing supports the pipes. The front main has no support at all outside of the boiler room. This does not seem like something a single inexperienced person can do, sadly.

Is there a way to calculate savings from a 2-stage gas valve?

Radiator & Main Pitch:

Radiators and baseboards are all pitched correctly toward their risers. Verified with a long level. Convectors only make a dry hissing sound, so haven't checked their pitch. Can't check the run-outs buried inside the floors, but haven't heard any water hammer inside them.

The rear main and attached run-outs are all pitched correctly toward the boiler near as can tell with a magnetic level. Pitch on rear main is between 1.75 and 2 degrees (about 0.4 inches per foot), measured using a protractor and a piece of string. Pitch on the only run-out on rear main that I could reach is 5 degrees (1 inch per foot).

The front main is pitched toward the boiler, but at 1 degree (0.2 inches per foot) or less. The section inside the boiler room is almost horizontal. The T and union in the photo below are horizontal according to the magnetic level.

http://i.imgur.com/svES9v7.jpg?2

From first post, near boiler piping. The main going away from camera is the 'rear' main. The main going toward the camera is, as nicholas bonham-carter noted, almost level.

http://i.imgur.com/TfpHopR.jpg

This is the start of the 'front' main. It is almost horizontal, with slight pitch toward the boiler. The fittings are horizontal according to the magnetic level.

http://i.imgur.com/eP6TZEC.jpg

This is further down the front main, on the other side of the boiler room wall. Pitch here is about 0.2 inches per foot.

According to Lost Art of Steam Heat, counterflow mains should be pitched at least 1 inch per 10 feet, or 0.1 inch per foot, so in theory even the front main comes in barely within guidelines for much of its length. But the much steeper rear main presumably was done that way for a reason. So should the front main be made steeper along its entire length as well?


On venting:

Not sure if there were any main vents on the basement mains. Main venting is on list of stuff that will eventually get done, but house currently heats the way we want it to -- the baseboards and convectors heat first, then the big radiators on the first floor, then the big radiator in the attic. The second floor baseboards have the fast vents because I want them to get hot fast and start heating their respective rooms, since they don't hold a lot of heat like radiators and don't have lots of surface area to heat a space quickly like convectors. And to help vent the risers and mains since we don't have real main vents.

Don't recall why I didn't write down the convector vents -- made the system diagram almost a year ago. Think most of them were the big vertical straight 1/4" vents, and assumed they're standard. Some might have had adjustable USAV vents of the kind sold in Home Depot set to full open. Will check tomorrow what the convector vents are.

We used to have Maid O' Mist Ds on all but two of the radiators/baseboards, and the result was an overheated attic and first floor, and freezing second-floor bedrooms.

Neither the gauge on the boiler nor the one attached to the radiator in the attic shows pressure until the attic radiator is halfway hot, and it only begins to short-cycle once all the radiation is hot. Everyone living here likes the sound of air hissing as it is pushed out of or sucked into the radiators, also.

Ideally, seems like main vents should go on the end of each of the two mains, and the top of the long riser at the front of the house.

Am rather hesitant to try and install vents on top of the risers, because the risers have these beautiful valves on top:

http://i.imgur.com/ORPWfQN.jpg?1

This is the radiator at the top of the front riser:

http://i.imgur.com/eQ7DmAT.jpg?1

Pressure gauge is backup in case the pressuretrol clogs again. Of five plumbing suppliers visited, only one carried pressure gauges below 30PSI, and all of them thought I was insane for wanting one.

Swapped the Hoffman 40 for a Maid O' Mist D and used electrical tape with a pinhole to downsize the opening. Looks somewhat ugly, but works. Have a spare straight Varivalve, but the water in the radiator makes it drool condensate and howl like a banshee. Varivalves really don't like water.

homer2101

Dave0176 said:

The near boiler piping is ALL WRONG. Since this boiler is oversized Id prefer to run a 4" drop header to help slow the steam down. Now since it is a counterflow system both mains must return condensate to the boiler in the opposite direction of the steam flow. One main looks to drip into the equalizer, the other main drips right into the out rushing steam from the faux header. Both mains need large main venting at the end of the runs.

That's the near boiler piping issues, I also see various convectors and baseboard radiation, most of this is only recommended for use with two pipe steam, so really I think they should have been dripped into a wet return to avoid massive water hammer issuess.

A company very familiar with steam should be able to reconize and suggest and make the proper repairs.

I just hate going over the Hudson otherwise I'd come check it out.

Not sure I'll be able to sell a 3" header, much less a 4" one.

Each main has its own equalizer. This is the 'front' main and its equalizer:

http://i.imgur.com/TfpHopR.jpg

But the pitch is very shallow.

The convectors were probably added in the 70s during the last bathroom/kitchen renovation, judging by the style. Hoping to replace them with in-wall cast iron radiators at some point in the near future.

STEAM DOCTOR

The "second header" is probably filled with water. Where there is steam, there is water (condensation). The water in the second header had no where to drain to. The steam will pass over the water, pick some of it up and cause banging. Get that fixed.

gennady

Jonny88, thanks for kind words.

We cannot control what people write about us, and whatever is written is original unedited reviews of our performance.

What I often see as a problem in steam systems, is oversized and over fired boilers, choked by near boiler piping. It creates in turn situation where condensate is accumulated in returns and pushed into headers where it meets steam. It creates hammer, breaks supports, messes up pitches and then you get whole bouquet of issues.

(a) Steam is supposed to hammer;
Answer: No, steam is completely quiet and efficient system when in good working order.

(b) We should add bigger radiators to act as condensate reservoirs;
Answer: No. It is absurd.

(c) We should switch to hot water for heat;
Answer: No. Steam system is as good as hot water system.

(d) The horizontal runs to the radiators buried inside the floors might be sagging
Answer: Possible.

(e) The mains in the basement are incorrectly pitched.
Answer: Possible and easy to check, but not critical.