Recent DeKnuckleheading

j a_2

j a_2

JStar

gerry gill said:

Hey Joe- engineering wise you should have no issues with a vertical header (may need baffle plates) kind of like a steam separator or cyclone separator i would think. I've been wanting to experiment with a box header, since a square or rectangle would have greater internal area for separation than a round pipe. Was even thinking of a pyrex window in order to observe whats happening inside. Its good to be a steam psychopath

The box header sounds cool. And it would allow for those easy observation windows. Ok, the race is on to get this done.

SWEI

j a said:

has anyone ever use the formula to compute the steam velocity at different joints at the near boiler piping

http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/steam-pipe-sizing-by-velocity.html

Dave0176

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Beautiful job as usual. Is this a Williamson? I wasn't aware that they ship them with the thermoflo tag.

Yes, you can also get it branded as Union Steam if you buy from Birdsall plumbing. My supplier gives me the Williamson branded boilers for 30% less then what I pay for equivalent Weil McLain boilers, and all it is, is a different paint color.

Abracadabra

Williamson's website even looks like weil mclain's

JStar

Exact same boiler. When I order parts for Williamson or Union Steam, I just get the WM parts from my local supplier.

And that's how marketing works. Offer 4 options at lower prices to make the same exact product appear superior at a higher price.

ChrisJ

JStar said:

Exact same boiler. When I order parts for Williamson or Union Steam, I just get the WM parts from my local supplier.

And that's how marketing works. Offer 4 options at lower prices to make the same exact product appear superior at a higher price.

But how does that make sense? Just offer the higher price on all of it. It makes no sense to sell the same product and undercut yourself, does it?

JUGHNE

They are most likely not shortchanging themselves. Having the option of several different labels to brand the same piece of equipment, it gives the HO the illusion of having choices. Different installers can offer "competing" different brands.

Also if the HO heard bad things about Williamson brand for instance, they might feel better about WM brand being in their house.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

They are most likely not shortchanging themselves. Having the option of several different labels to brand the same piece of equipment, it gives the HO the illusion of having choices. Different installers can offer "competing" different brands.

Also if the HO heard bad things about Williamson brand for instance, they might feel better about WM brand being in their house.

Different labels fine, but different prices?

JStar

Let's not forget about the pharma-industry, too. Williamson is WM's generic drug counterpart. But, some people still insist on buying the name and reputation.

JUGHNE

Nordyne Corp. has almost 10 different brands they can put on basically the same equipment. The top line names have more options available. But with more money these top line names also give you a better warranty on the same standard equipment.

Also the volume a contractor buys will determine his price to the wholesaler. If you buy a truck load of equipment that could be drop shipped from the factory and the wholesaler doesn't have to handle anything but paperwork, you would probably get a pretty good discount. (It used to be that there were different "columns" of pricing at the suppliers, depending on your volume & credit rating you might get a better price than the next guy for exactly the same items.)

ChrisJ

JStar said:

Let's not forget about the pharma-industry, too. Williamson is WM's generic drug counterpart. But, some people still insist on buying the name and reputation.

I bought WM because I didn't know there were cheaper options that were identical.

Then again, after that tweeter I probably wouldn't buy from them again.

jonny88

Look at indirects Alliance $150 more than Vaughn exact same product but you pay for the Burnham name.

j a_2

My thinking, they all have the same usless warranty....And the big corporations could care less about you the installer and you the end user...As they sit on the beach drinking there profits. As you go out in the middle of a cold might to fix there crap

ChrisJ

What is the deal with indirects regarding their price? When I looked into them, they were more money than a complete water heater. How does that make sense!?

jonny88

I agree after a horrible experience with a Budures GB142.7yrs old.80 yr old lady in house with tennant upstairs.Got error code and fixed the obvious leaks on their unions.We got a rep out as we did not want to change parts without 100% confirmation as to what problem was.Rep comes and changes fan.Warranty is up so pensioner has to pay.He promises problem is fixed.2days later we get the call.Same error.Rep come back after a lot of arguments.Control board he says but has no way of testing.More money for pensioner.Condensate trap(inside boiler)has developed a leak on the seal more money.Lady is in tears as now tenant is threatening to leave as there is not sufficient hot water.Problem seems to have been fixed until phone rings again.Relief valve on boiler is dumping water in floor.We discover indirect has a leak on coil.More money for lady to pay.All trust is gone in us and unit.Unit gets cleaned and calibrated annually .Learn the hard way maybe 7yrs ago that product was up there but now am feeling a tad frustrated.And by the way it was not the first Budures indirect I changed due to a leaking coil.

STEAM DOCTOR

Dave0176 said:

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Beautiful job as usual. Is this a Williamson? I wasn't aware that they ship them with the thermoflo tag.

Yes, you can also get it branded as Union Steam if you buy from Birdsall plumbing. My supplier gives me the Williamson branded boilers for 30% less then what I pay for equivalent Weil McLain boilers, and all it is, is a different paint color.

FYI: One of my colleagues recently called Williamson and to make a long story short, he was told that you are not allowed to use the right hand return or supply tapings. Those tapings are not listed in the literature, come plugged and are not approved for use. I asked him if they gave any rational. He said that he was told that the return must be on the same side as the controls(which are all on the left side of the boiler) or else there will be safety issues.
We all know that that does make any sense. Just letting you all know for your own knowledge. Potentially, there could be issues with warranties.

Abracadabra

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Dave0176 said:

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Beautiful job as usual. Is this a Williamson? I wasn't aware that they ship them with the thermoflo tag.

Yes, you can also get it branded as Union Steam if you buy from Birdsall plumbing. My supplier gives me the Williamson branded boilers for 30% less then what I pay for equivalent Weil McLain boilers, and all it is, is a different paint color.

FYI: One of my colleagues recently called Williamson and to make a long story short, he was told that you are not allowed to use the right hand return or supply tapings. Those tapings are not listed in the literature, come plugged and are not approved for use. I asked him if they gave any rational. He said that he was told that the return must be on the same side as the controls(which are all on the left side of the boiler) or else there will be safety issues.
We all know that that does make any sense. Just letting you all know for your own knowledge. Potentially, there could be issues with warranties.

I believe WM requires LWCO/feeder to be on the same side as the return because on (especially larger boilers) the water level on the opposite side can be a bit different than the water level on the return side. Putting the feeder on the opposite side of the return could lead to flooding the boiler with a trigger happy feeder.

ChrisJ

Seems odd being they supply return tappings on both sides, at least on the EG series.

I used the return opposite of my controls and honestly it doesn't concern me at all as I used both supply tappings so there shouldn't be too much of a difference in water level. And as far as warranty goes I'm assuming I threw that away the day I installed my own boiler.

KC_Jones

They want the feed on the same side, but not the return. Here is the quote from the EG manual:
"Steam supply must be on same end as controls.
Return may be from either end."

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

They want the feed on the same side, but not the return. Here is the quote from the EG manual:
"Steam supply must be on same end as controls.
Return may be from either end."

Oh,
So mine is right.

STEAM DOCTOR

Still don't see a lot of sense in either requirement. Don't see why it matters which side you return from. Water seeks it's own level. Boiler water level will be the same, regardless of which side you return from. As far as I know, no other manufacturers have such a requirement. If memory serves me correctly, Slant Fin's atmospheric steam boiler has the controls on the right and the return on the left.
IF, IF, IF you buy into the theory that the boiler water will be higher on the side of the return, then all the more reason to have the return on the OPOSITE side. Having return on same side will cause water on far side to potentially be too low (i.e. dangerous). Having controls on the opposite side as return can cause boiler flooding. You chose!!
Supply piping: Take a look at page 49 of Lost Art. Can only happen with supply on SAME side as lwco.
Bottom line: If boiler is properly piped, skimmed etc, it should not matter which side the supply or returns are on.

JStar

I would rather WM finally figure out that putting the LWCO all the way in the back of the boiler side is a bad idea. Every faulty LWCO I've changed last year was on a WM boiler.

ChrisJ

JStar said:

I would rather WM finally figure out that putting the LWCO all the way in the back of the boiler side is a bad idea. Every faulty LWCO I've changed last year was on a WM boiler.

Maybe it's assumed that's the most steady location?

Steamhead

I believe that if some knucklehead reduces the steam outlet area and the water level tilts, it would tilt the most opposite the steam tappings. So they put the LWCO there to catch the tilted-down water level.

STEAM DOCTOR

The water will tilt toward the steam outlet. The water will be higher on the side of the steam outlet and lower on the other side of the boiler. Putting the steam outlet on the same side as the lwco can result in the lwco being submerged in water while at the same time, the far side of the boiler will dry fire. Obviously, will only happen if the boiler is knuckleheaded.
I really hope that these companies are not catering to knuckleheads.

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

The water will tilt toward the steam outlet. The water will be higher on the side of the steam outlet and lower on the other side of the boiler. Putting the steam outlet on the same side as the lwco can result in the lwco being submerged in water while at the same time, the far side of the boiler will dry fire. Obviously, will only happen in the the boiler is knuckleheaded.

I really hope that these companies are not catering to knuckleheads.

Why not?
WM complimented an install that had no header recently on twitter!

Steamhead

STEAM DOCTOR said:

The water will tilt toward the steam outlet. The water will be higher on the side of the steam outlet and lower on the other side of the boiler.

It will tilt up toward the steam outlet and down as it gets further away. See the diagram on page 49 of Lost Art. In the case of the W-M EG/EGH, on the smaller ones it would probably tilt downward from front to back since that's the longest dimension. On the larger ones, the longest dimension is side to side so it would tilt that way.

STEAM DOCTOR

Not quite sure if we are agreeing or not. In truth, this entire conversation is silly. If the boiler is piped correctly, then it does not matter which tapping is used. Installation instructions should not be written for those who are knuckleheading the boiler.
Maybe the left tapings needs to be used in case someone wants to install the boiler laying on its right side. Would be a real pain to install the boiler laying on its left side. Imagine having to lift the boiler to work on the controls. Maybe that's why the return tapping is 2.5". This allows one to use that taping as alternate supply when the boiler is installed laying on its side.
(I hope that everyone realizes that this last paragraph is in jest).

JStar

When I first started in this business, I was jealous of the old-timer's war stories. They had much more experience and so many interesting stories about jobs gone bad. Then, as I learned more, I realized how lucky I've been to avoid all of those problems. Do the job right and you'll never have a story to tell. Sure, it's boring, but when it comes to work, boring is a beautiful thing.

j a_2

Kinda depends on what some people call a good day or what some people call a bad day...

BobC

There is an old curse - "May you live in interesting times". I think of the cuban missle crisis as an interesting time, I don't like interesting times. Below is one theory of where the saying came from -


Mr Kristof, I do not remember have ever hearing that. I searched Chinese website and copied below article for your reference. It seems like it was translated from an ancient Chinese article(Ming Dynasty/Author Feng Meng Long) by Robert F Kennedy.

Below article and comments are copied from http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/40581845.html

出自：Robert F Kennedy翻译的：明·冯梦龙《醒世恒言》第三卷：
“却说莘善领着浑家阮氏和十二岁的女儿，同一般逃难的，背着包裹，结队而走。忙忙如丧家之犬，急急如漏网之鱼。担饥担冻担劳苦，此行谁是家乡？叫天叫地叫祖宗，惟愿不逢鞑虏！正是： 宁为太平犬，莫作乱离人！ ”

同书第十九卷：
“〔程万里〕每日间见元兵所过，残灭如秋风扫叶，心中暗暗悲痛，正是：宁为太平犬，莫作离乱人。”

宁为太平狗，不做乱世人。 I rather be a dog in peaceful times, then live as a man (woman) in turbulent times. (I added this one in after learning that the expression “may you live in interesting times” has become very popular.)
Although the expression “may you live in interesting times” is often referred to as a “popular Chinese curse”, I do not recall having heard that, at least not in that form .


Bob