Help Wanted...

Mark Eatherton

Wallies,

I have been the director of the RPA now for 2 and 1/3 years. It has been an arduous journey, with some ups and some downs, mostly ups, but we (I especially) do this for the industry.

We now have in place one of the most dynamic group of people (members on committees and members in general) and are kicking butt and taking names. We have an actual Hydronics/Radiant Code that is part of the Uniform family of codes (Uniforms Solar Energy Hydronics Code) and are in the final stages of developing an ANSI recognized, ASSE developed Professional Certification program for designers and installers.

We have and continue to add instructors to, our online university, RPAU, with HeatSpring offering some of the best instructors time and money can buy, making education of yourself and your employees avaialable at YOUR convenience.

We recently inked a deal with Tom Grandy and Associates to help show experienced contractors how to turn their hard work into a good profit margins so they can retire comfortably or live well before retirement.

We have inked a deal with Kilowatt Financial to provide low interest, high dollar (up to $30K) financing IN THE CONSUMERS HOUSE. (less than 30 minute approvals online)

We have renewed committments from UPS offering our members a significant discount on shipping less than truck loads.

We have a monthly newsletter available to members only.

We have printed magazines to help you sell radaint comfort (walls floors and ceilings) to the consumers.

We have monthly Lunch and Learn webinars to keep you abreast of the latest and greatest in our industry.

We have HydroniX Talk (which is on summer vacation) which is also available to members only, and will now be taking place early evenings during the week, beginning this coming fall, featuring the likes of Dan Holohan and many other notable hydronics pioneers.

All of this for a contractor for less than $1.00 per day (actually less than that because the $300/year fee is good for 3 employees) as well as access to some of the best minds this industry has to offer (locked access LinkedIn accounts).

And we continue to look for ways to promote this wonderful industry of ours so that we can prove to the world something that most people here have known for a long time, that being that hydronics is THE most efficient method of transferring energy from point A to point B, or from point B to point A.

We have legislative power in Washington DC looking out for our industrys interests. (The old RPA was not allowed to lobby)

There's only one major missing component.....

>>> YOU! <<<

I and my membership committee (and the other 7 committees) are baffeled as to why former members of the old RPA and new potential members are not coming back into the fold.

So, I'd like to ask some questions and clear up some rumors.

Rumor 1: IAPMO runs the RPA. Wrong, WE run the RPA. IAPMO owns it lock stock and barrel, and provides us with all of the tools and support we need to futher its goals, but the RPA is run by its members. It is an organization OF the members, BY the members, FOR the members.

Rumor 2: RPA is dead. Wrong, it came extremely close to going under during the economic down turn, and if IAPMO had not intervened, it would have gone down in flames. Fortunately, IAPMO caught it before it plowed into the ground, gave it a soft landing, re-painted the plane, refueled it and sent it back up into the air.

Rumor 3: IAPMO is dead. This couldn't be further from the truth. IAPMO is the largest CDO (Code Development Organization) in the world. In fact they are expanding and now have offices around the world, helping to establsih plumbing and mechanical codes around the world.

Rumor 4: IAPMO and the RPA are too big for me to consider joining. WRONG, these oragnizations are here to support you, not fight you. Every code and standard that is developed by these organizations are done so under a very tightly watched and controlled ANSI Open Consensus process. No complaint goes unattended or ignored. All concerns are addressed until there are no more concens.

So, my question to you is why have you (contractors, designers, installers, equipment manufacturers, manufacturer rep agencies and others) not joined, or rejoined this fantastic organization? There is strength in numbers, and if we as an industry don't band together real soon, there is a real possibility that our industry will be put out of business by some very savvy foreign interests who have stated publicly that thier intent is to take over ALL methods of heating and cooling.

Tell me what rumors you've heard, or why it is that you haven't joined this organization. We are all ears, and we want to make certain that this machine is your machine, and that it does work for YOU, the industry.

I'd also like to thank all of our volunteers and our board of directors for their guidance in getting the ship to this point. Without your help, we wouldn't have gotten this far. THANK YOU.

Now, tell me what your concerns are?

If you'd like to join, go to www.radiantprofessionalsalliance.org and click on the JOIN button, or simply call Alan Wald, our Vice President of Memberships at 909-472-4211and he or one of his staff can get you signed up over the phone. Easy squeasy lemon peasy.

Thank you for your consideration, and thanks to the Holohans for being a member and allowing us to use this venue.

DanHolohan

Wallies, please let Mark hear your thoughts. He's trying to help all of us.

4Johnpipe

First of all a big THANK YOU Mark...I know how busy you are and you share in my passion for the industry. We talked in New Jersey over a month back and topics were buzzing around the table between you, Rich and myself.
A question please...Has the RPA ever tried to canvas architects? Rich and I are closing a radiant design and had a final site visit yesterday. This house was "designed" for radiant. That means it was engineered with double sill plates on 2x6" walls and larger TJI's to hold the weight of "mud" and we cant forget the larger joist hangers and main steel beams and footings etc...down the line. Well thousands have been spent to "design" the home for radiant and its a large 13,232 square foot home so that's a lot of lumber and a good deal more labor spent so far. Now we are left picking up pieces to try to get the job to the owners budget. Big problem we are using Sunboard no need for mud. The job should have been thousands of dollars less in cost then it was because the architect had no clue!!!
PS Tom Pitcherello got a lot from the course...

Mark Eatherton

Hi John, yes we do have a program for Architects. I'd be glad to share the slide deck with you if you think it might help moving forward. We've tried to engage the AIA for many years, but they are looking for AIA certified courses, and ours are IACET certified. Our Education Department is working on getting AIA approval for the course. Getting Rich certified as an approved RPA isntructor will go a long way towards that end of educating architects. There's more to life than 1-1/2" of gypcrete...

Thank you and Rich for your continued support of the RPA efforts. It is people like you two who make this job worthwhile, and it makes us feel good knowing that we can and have helped you in your journey.

Keep up the good work, and I am very glad that Tom also benefitted from my class. Maybe they will renew our teaching contract :-)

ME

DanHolohan

Anyone else have thoughts? Thanks.

Charlie from wmass

I often decide not to join as I am a one man shop in Western Mass. How can a national group help me? I am aware of the strides made for codes and to keep a good name for radiant heating. I am just not shipping enough for UPS discount to entice me. As far a webinars go I seldom have a chance to watch one through. The lack of understanding how trade groups affect me also keeps me out of other groups such as PHCC.

DanHolohan

Useful insights, Charlie. I wonder if other one-man shops feel the same. Love to hear from them. Thanks.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks for the valid feedback Charlie.

The majority of our members are one and two man mom and pop shops. Having known you for many years here at the wall, I suspect you've gleaned everything you need to understand to comfortably do the pipe, valve and fitting side of the business, and we understand that.

We have educational programs to teach things like the business of doing business, knowing what your breakeven costs are, and how much profit margin is a reasonable expectation. We're not just for the big companies, and we cater to the smaller organizations.

We designed all our our programs for the busy people, like you, and set it up so you can view/review the information on YOUR schedule, not ours. I would encourage you or any other readers to go to the www.radiantprofessionalsalliance.org web site and look around.

There are a LOT of key member features that are accessible only to our members, so if you want to join, it will cost you less per day than you spend on coffee, assuming you drink coffee. It won't even put a dent into your beer budget :-)

Join us in our efforts to keep this industry strong and moving forward, and help us show the world what we already know, that being that hydronics, and especially radiant are THE most efficient, most comfortable systems around.

Did I mention that we can do radiant cooling now?

Thanks for the comment Charlie. Much appreciated.

ME

Steamhead

Charlie's point about not having a lot of time to devote to these industry groups is well taken. Many of us, especially in the smaller shops, would agree.

But another issue which will be quite familiar to those of us who have been around for a while, is the squabbling and backbiting that occurs between certain groups and certain individuals who are strongly associated with these groups. No names, we all can remember this happening.

Folks, this is bad for business. And it discourages people from joining the various groups, since being a member can force you into a position you don't necessarily support.

Enough said.

L Thiesen

Dan, I agree with Charlie on this. I am also a one man shop in central Kansas so there is little to no radiant in my area. A few hot water systems and almost no steam. I was a member of PHCC for many years but came to the realize that they had very little to offer to me to help my business. They cater to the large shops and seem to think a small shop is one with a dozen employees.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Mr. T. I'm sensing a theme.

Rich_49

Please be aware gentlemen , that RPA has many resources for other than radiant . It is more of a hydronics in general organization and is involved with code recommendations and certifications that may very well be necessary in your area to continue to ply your trade . Your voice is heard within this organization , joining is the only way to have a voice . If you don't vote or voice your opinion in a way that can be heard you have no right to complain . If and when these certifications become IAPMO , ANSI standards they will be powerful tools to possess , you may want them in your tool box long before your competition .

Mark Eatherton

Frank, your point about previous issues is a point well taken. I feel badly because I too got sucked into the negative vortex of the old RPA started by a couple of people. There was a lot of incorrect information that got out about management of the organization, and who was making how much money.

The reality of the matter is that the ONLY time the RPA was monetarily in good shape was when Mr. Drake was in control. THE ONLY time...

Times have changed, and so has management. IAPMO has sunk a LOT of money (well over $1,000,000.00) into this organization to get it cleaned up and back on track. Why? Because it is a water based organization, and they support the pipe trades and water based organizations. Pure and simple as all that. They are still a not for profit company.

Mr. T, as I told Charlie, there is benefit to joining this organization if you are in hydronics. Even for a one man shop. Just having access to some of the best minds in the hydronics business for when you find yourself in the field scratching your head over a situation you've never come across is worth the price of admission, and I guarantee that if you drink coffee, joining this organization will cost you less on a daily basis then what drinking coffee does... And it (joining the RPA) doesn't make you have to run to the restroom every thirty minutes like coffee does. :-)

Go to the RPA site at www.radiantprofessionalsalliance.org and look around and let me know if you don't find SOMETHING that will help you further your skills or knowledge base. When you become a member, even more things are made available to you that can't be seen from the front end of the site. And we are bringing more information for our members online nearly every day.

Rich and Dan, thank you for being a member and your continuing support.

Mr. T, I wish I was in your situation, NO competition. If you are not promoting even small radiant to your customer base, you are leaving a LOT of money on the table. Let us show you how it's done (marketing and installs.) We even have a good financing program available to get the business.

ME

hot_rod

All trade associations ebb and flow. When memberships are strong, and the economy is good, the industry and related associations generally flourish and prosper. Money is rarely a problem when times are good.

Manufacturer wrote the big checks to start and keep the association afloat, and the @900 members dues also helped float the boat. The money to run and maintain an association has to come from SOMEWHERE.

Only one question remains at the end of the decision to join a group "what's in it for me?"

From my experience the real answer is "will it make my phone ring " This is true for every member of the group, contractors, suppliers, designers and manufacturers alike.

Sure the meetings were a lot of fun, networking and meeting lifelong friends is priceless. The www provided a lot of that "communication" need these days as experienced here at HH.

But also a successful, well attended, well sponsored trade show was a large and necessary part of keeping the $$ flowing. Without a strong trade show the money to pay the bills became harder to come by. If the show provided the operating capital, then membership fees could be kept reasonable and affordable. Manufacturers would not have to buck up as much. Those that were involved with the RPA from day one could see how things changed as the economy started to slip.

The NAHB homebuilders show used to draw 100,000 plus when we exhibited there with the RPA, in the good old days, it dropped to below 30,000 when the market crashed, how do you suppose the changed the hydronics, especially radiant industry?

Unless you were on the RPA board during those years, saw the numbers and had to help make those $$ decisions, I not sure how one could comment on the financial stability of an association?

The housing industry has a lot to do with the viability of the radiant and hydronics industry. There is and has always been a strong, deep pocket competitor to hydronics in the form of forced air.

Every member, or potential member has to budget for association expenses. Suppose a large tube manufacture sees another market emerging that has strong growth potential, and consumes large quantities of their product, marketing, and trade association dollars need to be directed towards the best return, we are all in it for the income. Until a sale is made, nobody gets paid. Follow the money.

If you want people to join your party, you need to discover and offer what they need and want, at a cost they can manage. That is not an easy question to answer, and it has been the same question since the RPA was formed.

L Thiesen

Mark, the lack of radiant in my area is not due a lack of competition but the need for air conditioning. Due to our heat and humidity air conditioning is a must. This means central air with duct work so with that system already in place very few people will buy a second system just to have radiant floors.
Hot Rod has a good comment, will this make my phone ring? I don't think it would but it is just my thought in my situation.
Mr T.

Paul48

Thinking out loud......Not in the trade......Why is the RPA trying to fit into other organizations guidelines for certification? Why not proceed, and have the other organizations scrambling to get on board? The phones would be ringing for RPA certified installers, if every job done by a certified installer was "bonded" by the RPA. I, and any other consumer, would take that in a heart-beat. Mark....I apologize for sticking my nose in, where I have no right to.

Rich_49

Paul ,
Good advice is good advice no matter what the source . Homeowners and other than trades people are more apt to trust an organization whom has consumer representation .

jonny88

Ok gents I think I am coming onboard.I really hope you are able to accomplish one of your goals in tightening up the industry.
Hopefully it can be accomplished in our time in the industry.
Good luck with it.

DanHolohan

Welcome!

JohnNY

I sent my renewal check last week because I think it's important to belong to professional organizations of any kind. It's amazing what you can learn about the industry and your own business by having casual conversations, be it face to face or on line, with others trying to make a living the same way you are.
This industry has been fast moving and competition is fierce the last few years. Knowledge is power. Very often it's the only thing that sets me apart from the other bidders. Let's face it, mechanical services can be a commodity to some. You've got to have an edge if you're going to stand out.
I've enjoyed the webinars and reading materials the RPA has made available to members and I strongly encourage others to take advantage of these invaluable tools.

Thank you, Mark. You're doing a great job. I honestly think the reason the RPA doesn't have more members is because it's easier not to join. It's not the Association's fault. It can't be. It's too good.

RobG

JohnNY said:

I honestly think the reason the RPA doesn't have more members is because it's easier not to join. It's not the Association's fault. It can't be. It's too good.

I think it's due to the previous incarnation of the RPA of which I had the pleasure of being a board member. in our local chapter.

Leo_G

Hey Mark, you take Canuck bucks?

Mark Eatherton

Bob Rohr said:

If you want people to join your party, you need to discover and offer what they need and want, at a cost they can manage. That is not an easy question to answer, and it has been the same question since the RPA was formed.

Couldn't agree more Bob. Thanks for the words of wisdom. And thank you to you, Rex and all of the good folks at Caleffi for being a member. Knowing you as having sat on the previous board, let me be the first to say Thank You for your hard work. As you remember, contractor membership in the old RPA use to be around $500 to start. The IAPMO board decided to lower it to $300, so we are listening and reacting accordingly. Quite honestly, there are not a lot of contractor based organizations that are this inexpensive to join.

As it pertains to people joining our party, and wanting to know their wishes wants and needs, we have been performing a series of surveys asking the members what they want to see, hence our current structure. As I have mentioned and will continue to mention, OF the members, BY the members FOR the members. This is about YOU the members, not US the organizing/facilitating structure.

Paul 48, thank you for your observations. The old RPA had a certification program for designers and installers. Only problem was it was only recognized by members of the RPA. Not a lot of usable value there. The reason we chose our sister organization (ASSE) to develop and write the Professional Qualification Standards for hydronic and solar thermal designers and installers to an ANSI recognized standard is because those four little letters (ANSI) means a LOT more to the authority having jurisdiction than does the RPA.

Our eventual hope is that the AHJ's will recognize this ANSI standard and require it as a minimum for licensure to do hydronic heating and cooling in their jurisdiction. The RPA will be responsible for arranging the required testing criteria, and the logistics behind giving the exams, but ASSE, a very old well respected organization is responsible for the administrative part of the program. Our hopes are that these shoulder patches will carry more weight and impact then the previous program. Trying to get recognition for the true professionals in our industry, and lay the ground rules moving forward.

Johnny 88, thanks for the consideration. If we ever fail to meet your expectations, please call me personally and I will address your concerns. We are here to help YOU succeed in the business of hydronics. Rich has my phone numbers, and it is listed everywhere.

Mr. T., All that more reason for you to join our organization, and allow us to educate you to the wonders of residential radiant cooling. Please do not take offense to what I am going to say here, but times, they are a changing, and it is time for ALL of us to sit up and take attention. Radiant cooling is new to the residential sector, but has been around for over 20 years on the commercial side of things. The same technology is applicable to the residential scale, and we have numerous manufacturer members who are actively involved in designing these systems. Even in your heavy moisture laden part of the world, it really makes a lot of sense to handle the majority of the sensible loads with the radiant, and the balance of the loads (latent and sensible) with a small air handling system that is also responsible for maintaining the fresh air make up requirements of the home. Imagine a cooling system that is compressorless for the sensible loads, and a small ERV and dehumidification system for handling the latent loads.

Commercially, when they tested two identical buildings in India (heavy sensible and latent loading) a radiant building used 50% less energy than its full forced air equivalent. These potentials are the same for residential applications. It's just a matter of training and education to get you into a position where you are the king of radiant comfort for heating and cooling for your neighborhood. Not a competitor in sight...

I'd still be excited to have your market potentials in front of me, were I about 20 or 30 years younger. Join us and we can show you how and connect you to some very good manufacturers who already have radiant cooling programs available. The technology is here today.

JohnNY, what can I say, but THANK YOU for your ongoing and continued support. It's folks like you that keep me trudging along this road I've chosen. If ever there is something I can do for you, you have all of my contact information, feel free to reach out to me if you need advice or assistance. We are here to help YOU further your wonderful business.

Leo, Of course, Canadian hydronic's is spoken here. We are actually working on some memorandums of understanding with our excellent neighbors to the north who have 3 oceans to boast about :-)

One of our immediate goals is the production and distribution of a Best Practices Manual. It will be the "Go to" manual for assisting contractors in making decisions about what type of radiant comfort system to design for their customers. The Canadians actually have a leg up on us in their B-214 field hand manual, but the members want more. That is a very good start, but between the two organizations (Canadian Hydronics Council and the RPA) we believe it could and should be stronger. Our codes address the minimum safety requirements, but really don't drill down into the "How To". It (The code) can't. It's way too broad of a scope to meet the ANSI criteria for an open consensus standard like the code, hence the reason for the BPM.

We'd love to accept your membership, and your and other members input into this very important and valuable document.

Just to be clear, this BPM is NOT going to be a mandatory enforceable program, but more of a suggestive "How to" guide based on real world performance and experience. It will be a living document, up for renewal and refreshing every few years. There is more to life than just suspended tube radiant floor installations....

Rob, if you'd like to get re-involved, please feel free to contact me. We'd love to have you aboard one of our 9 committees. I am looking for someone to chair the Technical Committee. Eric Aune was our chair of that committee, but due to his work commitments with Mech Hub and Aune &H, had to step back. He's still an active member and valuable asset, just no longer the chair of that committee.

To anyone who has taken the time to read this answer, thank you for your patience. So many questions, so little time. Thank you for asking these questions, and please, keep them coming, and please, check us out and join this organization. We are here for YOU!

And again, thanks to the Holohan family for their continued support. You have always been there when we need you.

Next question/observation please

ME

Paul Pollets

Mark has an amazing ability to negotiate and further the causes of this group. That contractors don't actively support a trade association which is focused on hydronics is a damn shame. There's a reason why people have excuses for not being a member. "Not enough time" is not a very good one.

hot_rod

You're a busy boy, cranking out great material, newsletter, code standards, training, etc.

The industry would be foolish not to take advantage of all the RPA hard work, past and present. Keep up the good work.

Mark Eatherton

Thank you Paul and HR. We very much appreciate your support and involvement. This is for the good of this wonderful industry. It truly is...

Any other questions or comments?

ME

Mark Eatherton

Mr. T, I realized in going back through this thread that I missed answering a comment/question that you and HR posed.

We are not magicians, so I can't guarantee that we will make your phone ring, immediately.

However, we do list your name and contact information on our web site as a resource for shopping, wary consumers. Soon we will have a list of "Certified" installers and designers. An even weightier proposition.

We also can provide you with the tools (printed literature and knowledge base) to allow you to market yourself to the consumers and introduce them to something other than radiant floors (think walls and ceilings).

We can also help to train you and your employees, if need be, on how to sell radiant COMFORT over a forced air delivery system.

And if you are interested in the market potential, our organization can provide you with the training necessary to install hydronic based solar thermal systems, air source heat pump systems and ground source heat pump systems and show you how to interface them with conventional delivery systems.

We might not be able to physically make your phone ring, but we can provide you and your company with the methods of answering consumer questions to head them in your direction, and give you a leg up on any potential competition you might have locally that will allow you to get the jobs at a higher installed cost than the competition.

Thank you for the questions, and let me know if you have more.

We are here to help.

ME