Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.

If you've found help here, check back in to let us know how everything worked out.
It's a great way to thank those who helped you.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

ABS and PVC

NoeVillegasNoeVillegas Member Posts: 4
Can you use ABS and PVC fittings/glue conversely? I have A leaky 1 1/2 ABS kitchen drain that requires a new tee. ABS is hard to find around here.

Comments

  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    i believe so
    http://www.oatey.com/products/plastic-pipe-cements-and-primers/oatey-specialty-cements/abs-to-pvc-transition-green-cement

    i use the oatey all purpose stuff with the red label, it's a clear cement and does both but as in ABS to ABS, and PVC to PVC.
    i assume it doesn't do abs to pvc, never tried it, since they have the green stuff.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,144
    I just cut out the ABS stuff. Join PVC fittings/assembly to ABS stub with a Fernco or hubless rubber coupling.

    May not be code/legal but makes for easy clean out if needed.
    Some here will disagree but no problem in my area.
  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 3,456
    No. I don't know where u are, but NYC and NYS prohibit mixing ANY plastics that are not of the same makeup. You might "get by" doing it, but the chemical differences might react detrimentaly. Any chemical engineers here to
    'Splain? Mad Dog
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • HillyHilly Member Posts: 406
    Oatey's Green/White label is a Transition Cement designed for ABS->PVC I wonder if it does PVC->ABS hahaha
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Hilly said:

    Oatey's Green/White label is a Transition Cement designed for ABS->PVC I wonder if it does PVC->ABS hahaha

    If your gonna use all-purpose cement you may as well be using Elmers glue.
  • delta Tdelta T Member Posts: 789
    I'm with Rob on this one. I've done a fair amount of waste and vents in both ABS and PVC and I used the combo glue once for a quick repair job, and it leaked. On every joint. Never again. I have never had a no hub leak (assuming proper sizing, a full metal band and proper installation).

    My feeling is that the transition glue was a compromise on both sides. It kind of works for each material, but not very well. I would be very curious to hear from a chemical engineer on how it works considering the chemistry of an ABS joint and PVC joint are so different.
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    after cleaning up this weekend i noticed i had put in a piece of white pvc coupled to black abs, it's my kitchen sink drain the original black 2" ABS pipe running along basement ceiling over 10' worth clogged up a few years back. i cut it out and threw in a piece of white pvc and used the oatey all-purpose cement, have not had a problem.
    I also had hacked in white pvc to black abs on my pump up bucket for my washing machine in basement and the pieces that i had glued were solid and never leaked.
    this is what i used
    http://www.oatey.com/products/plastic-pipe-cements-and-primers/oatey-specialty-cements/all-purpose-cement
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    ron said:

    used the oatey all-purpose cement, have not had a problem.
    I also had hacked in white pvc to black abs on my pump up bucket for my washing machine in basement and the pieces that i had glued were solid and never leaked.
    this is what i used
    http://www.oatey.com/products/plastic-pipe-cements-and-primers/oatey-specialty-cements/all-purpose-cement

    Welcome to the hack club.
  • Sam81Sam81 Member Posts: 34
    By nys code (ipc) it is not legel to join them together by glue, but we been using the transition glue for many years and have them approved by inspectors, u gotta use primer on the PVC side, and it is a slow set vs all other. But never had a problem with it
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Sam81 said:

    By nys code (ipc) it is not legel to join them together by glue, but we been using the transition glue for many years and have them approved by inspectors, u gotta use primer on the PVC side, and it is a slow set vs all other. But never had a problem with it

    Why not just do it correctly the first time? I see stuff all the time that says "All Purpose", and it may work. That doesn't make it legal. If a joint were done with all purpose cement and caused a damaging leak in a home do you think the insurance company not going to go after the company that used an unapproved product?

    Not on my watch!
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    i'm not saying it's the best way to go, all i'm saying is i had to do it in a pinch and i had no problems, and i used the oatey all purpose stuff. between the choice of fix in 30 minutes including run to home depot that is open at 8pm and 5 minutes away versus alternatives, i chose to hack it. always easier to criticize when it's not your problem.

    http://www.oatey.com/products/plastic-pipe-cements-and-primers

    i'm also confused about this talk about all-purpose cement vs solvent welds. what are you using that isn't a "cement" ? because the oatey stuff if you get the abs "cement" or the pvc "cement", it says "cement". and unless you specifically ask at the one place i buy stuff if you need plastic "cement" they always hand you the all purpose stuff in the red label. the only thing i can see being a problem if it's a pressurized plastic pipe, but i thought the subject was a drain and the question was can it be done not the best way to do it.
  • Sam81Sam81 Member Posts: 34
    It comes in when u do remodel and its all done abs or vise versa,
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    A solvent weld breaks down the material of both the pipe and fitting enabling them to be as close to "one" piece without doing a fusion weld. If you have ever tried to separate a fitting from a piece of pipe you will understand. With all-purpose it is just gluing the joint and not bonding it (making it one). I hope that made sense?
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    edited June 2015
    i understand the solvent weld aspect, but aren't they all a solvent cement?
    the oatey all purpose in the red label says solvent cement, as does pretty much everything else i see on the shelves... which is basically oatey or hercules.
    can you tell me of a glue or something that isn't a solvent cement that someone might use to glue plastic pipe together?

    the oatey all purpose stuff i use, even on the white pvc to black abs that i had fitted, is in no way coming apart without breaking the pipe. it's pretty much welded together, after 3-5 seconds once fitted you are either done or cutting it out and redoing. only way i could see there being a problem is if you don't coat the pipe end completely with the cement before fitting it, or maybe the cement you are using is old and partially cured in the can and the solvent part of the glue is no longer working .
    i assume the green oatey transition cement would work better when doing the abs to pvc, i've never had a reason to buy it so i don't know first hand.
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 5,328
    RobG said:

    A solvent weld breaks down the material of both the pipe and fitting enabling them to be as close to "one" piece without doing a fusion weld. If you have ever tried to separate a fitting from a piece of pipe you will understand. With all-purpose it is just gluing the joint and not bonding it (making it one). I hope that made sense?

    This makes perfect sense....
    If a person who has very little pride in there work wants to cobble a bunch of different products together, the multi cements will probably hold together for a good long time.
    If the work is done in an exposed location like the OP's under sink location, the job can be easily redone when it eventually leaks.
    The bottom line is that it does not meet code and is really a hack repair. It should never be done in a concealed location.
    The abs and pvc products are very different chemically and were never intended to be used together.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    i strongly disagree with the notion of all-purpose cement being just a glue. maybe you guys know some kind of junk all-purpose cement that i don't but for the oatey all-purpose cement i linked above it Meets performance requirements of ASTM D-2564, D-2235, F-493 and if it were so bad as some people make it out to be then all-purpose cement would be against code everywhere. Fact is there are many places where it is not against code and perfectly fine to use, and the product is still widely sold. So what does this really mean, or are we forbidden from thinking logically which may question plumbing code?
    In the end it doesn't matter how the joint is made only that it is sound, leak-proof, and it lasts. to scoff at the idea and say all-purpose is no good because some code somewhere says it is not allowed is FUD.
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    and now that i am thoroughly curious I'm looking up ASTM D-3138 which is in regards to the green ABS-PVC transition cement. my guess is the chemists have figured out how to suitably bond abs to pvc, and it just slow wheels with bureaucracy and plumbing code for it not being widely accepted. if people do take pride in their work and looked into what's new, improved, different then bonding abs to pvc wouldn't be against code ;)
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Why not just take half a can of PVC cement and mix it with half a can of ABS cement and shake well? If one cement would do it all why do they make ABS cement AND PVC cement? As stated above, they are two different chemical compounds. If you filled your car with half diesel and half premium gasoline would your car run? Maybe? But would it be right? No!
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 5,328
    RobG said:

    Why not just take half a can of PVC cement and mix it with half a can of ABS cement and shake well? If one cement would do it all why do they make ABS cement AND PVC cement? As stated above, they are two different chemical compounds. If you filled your car with half diesel and half premium gasoline would your car run? Maybe? But would it be right? No!

    I actually think that the diesel and gas mix would do a better job of bonding PVC and ABS.

    @ron
    If you are not convinced, why don't you glue some fittings together with the different options, then deconstruct them.
    Let us know how it works out.
    You are arguing from the point of a the convenient way to get a job done. Why not back up you assertions with some tests.
    I have personally pulled apart joints glued with multi cement with my hands.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • MikeL_2MikeL_2 Member Posts: 197
    I think the thing I appreciate most about this website / forum is the willingness of all participants to share their experience, tips, techniques, policies, procedures, technical support, errors, opinions, sacrifices, and successes. This dynamic creates an opportunity for learning.
    Charlotte Pipe Company does not recommend the use of combination glue / solvent, and, does not list it for use with any of their products in their technical literature; I have had to invent many temporary, safe repairs during my career, but, always returned to make permanent compliant repairs as soon as possible.
  • Harvey RamerHarvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,200
    I have done it once or twice in accessible locations. The first time I tried it, I found that I could break the joint apart with my bare hands. That didn't sit well, so I investigated some more. I discovered the primer was softening and breaking down the ABS, hence the glue had nothing to grab to. I tried a couple different products and found that using "Harvey's Cleaner" along with PVC glue made a strong bond. Even so, I can't say I recommend that as a permanent solution. Especially on joints that will be inaccessible.
    Ramer Mechanical
    ramermechanical.com
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    edited June 2015
    Zman said:


    I have personally pulled apart joints glued with multi cement with my hands.
    You are arguing from the point of a the convenient way to get a job done

    and i'm sure someone somewhere has pulled apart ABS joints glued with ABS specific cement, and PVC joints glued with PVC specific cement. that does not conclusively mean it was the fault of the cement used and all-purpose cement everywhere is bad and should not be used.

    once again the oatey "all-purpose" cement meets ASTM-D2564 for bonding PVC to PVC AND it meets ASTM-D2235 for bonding ABS to ABS.

    what all purpose cement did you use?
    my argument here is with the notion that a cement labeled as all purpose... specifically the oatey stuff that i linked above... works just fine. and it should because the manufacturer of it states so, it meets ASTM-D2564 and ASTM-D2235. Do you think that ABS specific cement you are using (which only meets ASTM-D2235) is doing anything greater and better than the all-purpose cement that meets the same ASTM specification?

    I'm not really arguing from a point of a convenient way to get the job done, i'm arguing based on what i read and recognizing a logical inconsistency. old ways die hard i guess.

  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    MikeL said:


    Charlotte Pipe Company does not recommend the use of combination glue / solvent, and, does not list it for use with any of their products in their technical literature; .

    can you post a link to that technical literature?
    if there is some other method to it besides referring to the ASTM... American Society for Testing & Materials... please let me know.

    if you state use a glue/cement meeting ASTM-whatever for joining a specific type of pipe, then how can you go on to recommend against something labelled "all-purpose" when it still meets that ASTM spec ?

    me personally when i see contradictory crap like that I start looking for different suppliers/manufacturers and that's for anything not just plumbing.
  • MikeL_2MikeL_2 Member Posts: 197
    The Charlotte Plastics Tech Manual can be downloaded from the Charlotte Pipe website - this manual is a must read for all involved in our trade.....................
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    ron said:


    MikeL said:


    Charlotte Pipe Company does not recommend the use of combination glue / solvent, and, does not list it for use with any of their products in their technical literature; .

    can you post a link to that technical literature?
    if there is some other method to it besides referring to the ASTM... American Society for Testing & Materials... please let me know.

    if you state use a glue/cement meeting ASTM-whatever for joining a specific type of pipe, then how can you go on to recommend against something labelled "all-purpose" when it still meets that ASTM spec ?

    me personally when i see contradictory crap like that I start looking for different suppliers/manufacturers and that's for anything not just plumbing.
    See page 86 of the attached document. Look at the last sentence of step 7. As I stated earlier the proper way to join the two materials is by screwing them together or using a No-hub coupling.
  • Shane_2Shane_2 Member Posts: 124
    " My friend's, uncles', cousin is a master plumber and he uses all-purpose glue all day long and never has a leak"



    Use the proper glue with the proper pipe. If you have to make a transition use a No-hub or a mechanical joint. Just because the guy in the orange smock said all-purpose would work, it's not the right way to do it.

    Even in a bind, I'm pretty sure the home centers have male/female adapters in both materials.
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    edited June 2015
    http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/PL_Tech_Man/Charlotte_Plastics_Tech_Manual.pdf

    ok so page 86 says "solvent cement should conform to the appropriate ASTM standard for the piping system as shown in the accompanying table. All purpose cement is not recommended."

    table on page 92:
    ASTM D 2235 for ABS DWV, ABS Plus foam core.
    ASTM D 2564 for PVC.

    exactly what i expected. so again, what's more important wording on a label saying saying or not saying "all-purpose"
    versus whether the product meets ASTM-#### ???

    oatey all-purpose cement meets both ASTM D2235 and 2564 !

    so you are saying oatey who is selling that "all-purpose" cement is wrong?
    They must be blatantly lying then on the label... after all we are only 15 years in to the 21st century who can believe a product can bond 2 different types of plastics. in fact it does 3... cpvc the label states meets ASTM-F493. But i didn't want to bring it up, you guys seem to have a hard enough time with a product meetings two ASTM standards.
    And again - i am NOT talking about bonding one type of plastic to another. I am talking about the same type to each other such as ABS-to-ABS and PVC-to-PVC.
    NOT abs-to-pvc (or pvc-to-abs for those of you that are intellectually challenged).

    why don't you pose that question to Charlotte plastics:
    if you are bonding ABS to ABS piping (or PVC to PVC piping),
    if a solvent that cement specifically Oatey meeting both ASTM 2235 and 2654 can be used? Then ask, what if the label also happens to have the 2 English words 'all' and 'purpose' if that negates the ASTM rating.

    like i said when i see stupid wording like this then i begin to look at other products/manufacturers. I'm surprised that document even says on page 1 that it was updated June 1, 2015.
    you might want to consider not taking everything you read as gospel.

    "old ways die hard"

    you guys continue to focus on the wording of "all-purpose" which does not matter. what matters is the ASTM spec the product meets.
    AND no one ever mentioned what "all-purpose" glue or solvent they used that failed, because if they did the first thing i would then do is ask if it met the ASTM spec for that particular type of pipe it was used on.



  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Someone on the site has the tagline "You can choose to do what you want, but you can't choose the consequences". Do what you want.
  • NoeVillegasNoeVillegas Member Posts: 4
    This is what I found out I should use.Primerand glue on PVC side and glue only on ABS side. Code states only one transition piece allowed. Not to be used with a bunch of PVC and ABS pieces mixed together. I appreciate all the help. Thanks guys.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,144
    So you have been without a drain for the last 15 days? (must be single) ;)
    A No-Hub or fernco costs less than a pint of anything. (and smells a lot better)
    Aren't there entire buildings connected with No-Hub couplings?
    But this has been very educational and informational....that is what Wall discussions are all about. :)
  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    edited June 2015
    if plumbing code or whatever states "all-purpose" cement is not to be used or not recommended, then what about "multi-purpose" such as Weld-on 790?

    http://www.weldon.com/pdf/weldon/790_PDS_05-2013.pdf


  • ronron Member Posts: 140
    4 years ago? I replaced my clogged drain pipe in basement ceiling pipe from kitchen sink one morning before work in a rush, depot doesn't have black ABS so I grabbed white PVC. Was supposed to be a temporary fix, but it's working so well AND if it pisses a few of you off I think I'll leave it. I've even had the replacement ABS pipe in the garage for a couple months now :) never mind my abs to pvc how about not on my watch getting them to properly pitch the 16' run of drain properly in the first place?



  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 971
    Not a big thing. I have seen some of the building shows filmed in Canada using a purpose / multipurpose glue.

    Sure it's against code.

    Approved transitions are : male to female adapter, slip nut adapters , no hub clamps and Fernco couplings.

    What's the big concern? If it is your house, do what you must.

    Ask a professional and they will tell you to do the best job possible, and that would be the approved transitions listed above.
  • nibsnibs Member Posts: 374
    A note about using the "Robar" style sleeve/hose clamp type connections, used one on my kitchen sink to ease assembly and it plugged up about 4 or 5 times over the first few years, I think solids were catching on the downstream lip. has not plugged up for at least 5 years now.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!