Is it ever too late?

Tinman

I'm 54 years old. I've been servicing and installing hot water boilers since the early 80's. I've been designing hot water and radiant systems since the mid 90's. I've never even touched a steam system. Never. I've read and read and read though...even practiced drawing many steam piping schematics. There's still that "never" word though and my shoulders hurt when I just get a glance of my 36" or 48" steel pipe wrenches. On top of that, there are some big time, heavyweight steam contractors in the Chicago area.

But here's where I'm at...I see the magic you guys do with steam systems and the beauty of the near boiler piping and I want a part of that. It really would be an item on my professional bucket list if I had one. I had a conversation with a steam pro recently and he said what us radiant guys do is much more complicated. I'm not buying that; seems like there are so many different variations of steam systems? And when I consider the amount time it may take to learn the nuances, I become more hesitant. I think the ideal situation needs to come along. A smaller steam boiler for someone I know or someone willing to trust my history with boilers in general to give me a chance.

Any thoughts?

SWEI

If I had to guess I'd say there are probably less than a dozen remaining residential steam systems here. I'm just a year behind you and if I had the chance, I would jump at it.

Tinman

Thanks Kurt...the opportunities are there. The more I think about it, a summer steam boiler replacement would be perfect. Takes all the pressure off. 1 pipe, 1 fitting, 1 nipple at a time.

Abracadabra

Like anything... getting your feet wet and slowly getting in is probably a better way than taking a dive off the deep end. I started out servicing steam, then did some small installs and eventually doing strictly large commercial installs. I tend to over-analyze things before getting into them, so other areas that I haven't been significantly exposed to, I have a nagging worry in the back of my head that I'll do something that'll f*ck up the job. That's one reason why I never got into radiant. Could I do a radiant job if my life depended on it? With all the reading I've done, maybe... would it be efficient? probably not.. I know the basics... p/s piping... pump away.. etc.. If I were exposed to radiant and actually get my hands on a bunch of systems, servicing them and seeing what works and what doesn't, I'd probably get better at it. Same thing with steam... think about servicing first... eventually you might run across a summer replacement and go from there...

Oh.. and regarding the 48" pipe wrenches... with my screwed up back, I try not to touch them anymore... that's what helpers are for..

I supervise... they wrench..
Work smarter.. not harder

Tinman

Good advice.

jumper

Why not wait until you're about to retire? Then go wild and use light wall tubing and clamped connections. If you get in trouble then,so what?

Giant threaded pipes for no pressure? I'm in awe of you guys.

Mad Dog_2

Steve. Why not take a ride to Wisconsin? (Ohio? I always forget ) do a boiler with Gerry Gill & Steve. Mad Dog

ChrisJ

In my opinion steam is very simple.

The problem is a lot of guys just don't get it. Once you understand it, you'll see how easy it is to work with. The problem is, just reading Dan's books isn't enough. You need to play with a system and see how it reacts.

Your objective is to get the air out of the system and replace it with steam. On a single pipe system, you have X amount of steam to work with so if you vent one radiator faster, the rest will get steam slightly slower than before. If you vent it slower, the rest will get steam slightly faster.


Once you get working with it, you'll realize it's not complicated, but is pretty awesome. You can heat a multi-story building with no moving parts. I view it as a giant multi-branched heat pipe.



Go for it.

j a_2

You want a real answer about why so many are afraid of steam…And this I heard very often during my installing days, many shop owners are afraid of call backs because the revenue lost…on a call back is not recoverable…And steam systems, can’t be installed and just walked away from…They also fear the unknown, whats hiding behind walls or under floors,and lack the interest to learn….Once you get it its incredible simple,and beautiful…Once tore down and arch of a beastly boiler for the ship to china,must have been 80 plus years old,in it I found an old wrench and a few other things, i could not help but wondering what it was like back then…Hope the one I put in lasts 80 years….Do not retire wishing you did something you could have done but didn’t because you were afraid…Afraid of what? I think for sure you can handle it…Writing it up to cover yourself and the owner as well is very important…Most steam owners think banging,hissing water filling/flushing is normal…Dah I think not..So when you ask them how has it been running and they say normal,watch out for that one,because to a polished steam guy thats not normal…I would be happy to help

DanHolohan

Stephen, I've got your back on this.

j a_2

Steven. My email japlumbing38@comcast.net my phone 6176886802. Contact me if u like I will discus your new steam adventure... you will do just fine....hope the Cubs have a good year

icesailor

In my experience with everything plumbing and heating related, it's not the fear of the system, because I always assume that it worked at one time before I got there. Its what someone did between when it worked, what someone did in the in-between time, and now that it doesn't work, why.

Figuring that out can be fearful.

The remedy is always something simple and stupid. The more complicated the remedy, the greater the chance that the fix isn't going to work.

Keep it simple. But don't be stupid.

Tinman

@j a - Thanks, I will do that.

Thanks Ice - Keeping it simple is a big part of my life and I try really hard to limit any stupidity. : ) Once I get 1 or 2 under my belt with some guidance I'll feel a lot better about it. And when it happens, I'll post pics and learn even more.

JUGHNE

I'm 66 and have to confess that I'm an electrical contractor. Electrical trade school is the only formal higher ed that I have.
But because of my rural location I had to diverse into Plbg, HVACR and hydronics. This has all been self taught.

I wish I had pursued more boiler work earlier, it is now my favorite trade. Had I done that I believe there might have been at least 2 systems that might not have went to the scrap yard.

Also the satisfaction of saving a lot of wasted fuel. One steam system I'm close to saw a drop from 1.48 to 0.59 therm/degree day. This is $1500 down to $900 per month (for the first 3 years). For me this is a feather in my hat. I have to do all the math and show the difference.

A residential system that went from $700 to $380 monthly and more comfort, also with only basic upgrades.

Both of these systems are right at the 100 year old point.

This was done with basic improvements that were obvious to anyone who studied steam on the wall and Dan's books.

My brother restores cars for a hobby and spends a fair amount of money on that. I tell him that boilers are my hobby and I make a fair amount of money on that. He is a bit envious.

icesailor

@JUGHNE:

That's the problem and reward for working in isolated places. There's no one to call when you find yourself falling down the rabbit hole. The person you call on the phone and ask for assistance may know less than you, or be a better BS'er. Or, they know what is up, but are burned out from talking to people who are clearly in way over their heads. YOU have the opportunities to do things that you would never have the opportunity to do if you lived in Boston or NYC. But if you live in Wolfeboro, NH, and you have a serious problem that you need some advice on, someone will want to send a couple of guys up to change a pump seal at $1200 per day each, its an all day job, and the pump seal is $350.00. They don't send their "A" team. They stay back home.

Send me the part. I changed it in 2 hours by myself with the tools in my truck.

JUGHNE

After about 45 years I have learned when to keep my hands in my pockets and back out of the room. But if it is really something I want to do I just look, ask questions and listen to both the people and equipment. Then for advice there are two wholesale houses that have someone familiar with the systems, but the best advice comes from the Wall and books that I have collected over time. I might spend more non-billable time studying than actually doing the job. (PS, I don't have cable TV, so this is my entertainment.) My wife & kids refer to me as studying on line "boiler porn".

icesailor

They must have gotten those Boiler Porn ideas reading about some old dead guy referring to piping a boiler as "Dressing A Boiler".

Its not the same. Some people have their minds where they don't belong.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

They must have gotten those Boiler Porn ideas reading about some old dead guy referring to piping a boiler as "Dressing A Boiler".

Its not the same. Some people have their minds where they don't belong.

Only people I know that dressed a boiler in my book is Weil-McLain with their Pyrex piping. I really wanted to do that and just couldn't afford it.

jumper

I suppose there's no way to know,but I suspect there are hydronic systems that never worked well.
>> because I always assume that it worked at one time before I got there.<<

Steamhead

We've encountered a few older ones- they were converted to Steam!

vaporvac

I don't think I've ever read about those conversions, @Steamhead ! More info ,please!

ChrisJ

vaporvac said:

I don't think I've ever read about those conversions, @Steamhead ! More info ,please!

I'm wondering if he meant "from" instead of "to".
Also, as far as I can tell steam is classified as hydronic heat.

Steamhead

No, I meant a hot-water system that was converted to steam or Vapor. We've seen quite a few of these in Baltimore. Here are two:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/117037/hot-water-conversion-to-webster-type-r-vapor

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/131435/another-old-gravity-hot-water-system-converted-to-vapor

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

No, I meant a hot-water system that was converted to steam or Vapor. We've seen quite a few of these in Baltimore. Here are two:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/117037/hot-water-conversion-to-webster-type-r-vapor

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/131435/another-old-gravity-hot-water-system-converted-to-vapor

Wow,
Are these to make up for all the guys that convert steam to hot water?

icesailor

Steamhead said:

We've encountered a few older ones- they were converted to Steam!

It seems that what is often shown here are steam boilers replaced with steam boilers, only the installer thought they were connecting a water boiler.

I was once sent to the local Post Office to look at a brand new boiler put in on a single pipe steam system. It had a nice Smith 2000 series boiler, all dressed up for hot water. When the water started squirting out of the radiator vents in the lobby, they gave up.

No LWCO, just a Watts 1156 and a 9D backflow with hot water controls.

It was installed by an AC company that got the contract to put AC in the building and change the old Depression Era WPA boiler. Even the AC didn't work.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

Steamhead said:

We've encountered a few older ones- they were converted to Steam!

It seems that what is often shown here are steam boilers replaced with steam boilers, only the installer thought they were connecting a water boiler.

I was once sent to the local Post Office to look at a brand new boiler put in on a single pipe steam system. It had a nice Smith 2000 series boiler, all dressed up for hot water. When the water started squirting out of the radiator vents in the lobby, they gave up.

No LWCO, just a Watts 1156 and a 9D backflow with hot water controls.

It was installed by an AC company that got the contract to put AC in the building and change the old Depression Era WPA boiler. Even the AC didn't work.

Was this in Massachusetts and were they licensed to do the work?

icesailor

It was heating in a Federal Post Office. It was around 1975.

RobG

ChrisJ said:

Only people I know that dressed a boiler in my book is Weil-McLain with their Pyrex piping. I really wanted to do that and just couldn't afford it.

Actually, the glass used was Schott scientific glass, borosilicate. I did a project for the US Geological Survey with it. You're right though, it aint cheap. If you look up Pyrex pipe all you will find is bongs.

BobC

The PO usually does a lousy job when contracting out jobs. to many of the managers are appointed without any real qualifications to do the job. I worked there for 8 years before I retired and all to many of the maintenance managers are useless as tits on a boar hog.

Bob

ChrisJ

BobC said:

The PO usually does a lousy job when contracting out jobs. to many of the managers are appointed without any real qualifications to do the job. I worked there for 8 years before I retired and all to many of the maintenance managers are useless as tits on a boar hog.

Bob

I wanted to know if the PO was located in MA and if the contractor that did the work was licensed.

I didn't get an answer.

vaporvac

Back to the h2o to steam conversions: Wow is right! I've often thought reading various posts that the HO really needed steam instead of going pumped, especially in certain situations and have wondered why it isn't done more often. How did you convince them that this was the way to go, @Steamhead ?

BobC

The PO where I worked was in Mass and I know federal regulations state work be be done by duly licensed individuals but I've seen a few folks with a license that I would not let near anything I owned.

Bob

Steamhead

vaporvac said:

Back to the h2o to steam conversions: Wow is right! I've often thought reading various posts that the HO really needed steam instead of going pumped, especially in certain situations and have wondered why it isn't done more often. How did you convince them that this was the way to go, @Steamhead ?

We didn't. The water-to-steam conversions I've seen were done decades ago, probably before hot-water circs came into use.

The latest one we found ended up as 2-pipe air-vent. I don't have pics of that one yet.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

Steamhead said:

No, I meant a hot-water system that was converted to steam or Vapor. We've seen quite a few of these in Baltimore. Here are two:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/117037/hot-water-conversion-to-webster-type-r-vapor

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/131435/another-old-gravity-hot-water-system-converted-to-vapor

Wow,
Are these to make up for all the guys that convert steam to hot water?

These were done decades ago. But I'm sure some of those who come on here sometimes and scream that all steam systems should be converted to hot-water, think the Dead Men who did these water-to-steam conversions are reaching out from the Great Beyond and jerking their chains. Me, I just smile..........

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

vaporvac said:

I don't think I've ever read about those conversions, @Steamhead ! More info ,please!

I'm wondering if he meant "from" instead of "to".
Also, as far as I can tell steam is classified as hydronic heat.

</blockquote I agree steam is a hydronic heat.

RobG

Steamhead said:

ChrisJ said:

Steamhead said:

No, I meant a hot-water system that was converted to steam or Vapor. We've seen quite a few of these in Baltimore. Here are two:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/117037/hot-water-conversion-to-webster-type-r-vapor

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/131435/another-old-gravity-hot-water-system-converted-to-vapor

Wow,
Are these to make up for all the guys that convert steam to hot water?

These were done decades ago. But I'm sure some of those who come on here sometimes and scream that all steam systems should be converted to hot-water, think the Dead Men who did these water-to-steam conversions are reaching out from the Great Beyond and jerking their chains. Me, I just smile..........

Henry?

ChrisJ

So the moral of the story is do not convert steam to hot water, do not convert hot water to steam, and for the love of god, never convert steam or hot water to forced hot air.

Am I on track?

icesailor

BobC said:

The PO usually does a lousy job when contracting out jobs. to many of the managers are appointed without any real qualifications to do the job. I worked there for 8 years before I retired and all to many of the maintenance managers are useless as tits on a boar hog.

Bob

This was done during the Millhouse era, before he resigned.

Congress decided to upgrade 190 rural Postal Substations throughout New England. It went out to bid. They had a section about minority or wounded Viet Nam veterans having preference in bidding. The guy/GC that got this job was a painting contractor. He bid on 140 of the jobs figuring that he might get 10. He got 135 of them. He had to take the low bid subs from the bid list.

A year later, he was bankrupt. It was sad. The guy was badly shot up in Viet Nam. The year before this, he was doing well. A year later, he was in court because his Lawyer told him to pay all the subs with bad checks to show the bankruptcy court what he owed. and had paid out. The Subs took him to court for the bad checks. Even though he had told the Subs that the checks were no good, and he was doing what the lawyer said to do. I had another court issue. We always came up on the same day so I followed it for almost 2 years.

It was sad to see this guy come in, a wounded combat veteran, with a missing leg, a prosthesis, and two arm canes.

vaporvac

ChrisJ said:

So the moral of the story is do not convert steam to hot water, do not convert hot water to steam, and for the love of god, never convert steam or hot water to forced hot air.

Am I on track?

No, I think we can convert H2O to steam, but noone does anymore because whatever problems arose from gravity systems can be fixed by pumps. But the rest is correct. (I think.) Maybe someone can explain why folks go from gravity to pumped returns on old systems. They seem so somple and elegant to me. What am I missing? I've wondered this for ages and thought of a separated thread, but figured it probably obvious to everyone, but me.

jumper

Converting hot water to steam is interesting question? Pipes are uninsulated and the run outs are not up to a proper steam installation. On the other hand a modernized building needs far less heat than originally. Also radiators will be oversized. You'll use TRVs and won't need mechanical radiator traps.Just orifices on return side. I think the conversion could be successful. Big old steam heated apartment buildings upgraded with TRVs work better than big old hot water heated apartment buildings upgraded with TRVs. Why that is is another interesting question?

A problem with converting is if horizontal runs are too long. You'll go crazy adding drips.

In former USSR many big hot water heated buildings froze in the nineties. Maybe they could be steam heated under suction?