Looking for a Little Steam Boiler

Chris_L

I am a homeowner with an older Burnham 404B steam boiler supplying my unit in a two-family home. This boiler has done yeoman service, and still works fine, but since it is over 30 year's old, I am considering taking advantage of a rebate program to replace it.

Here is the problem. The connected radiation is only 165 square feet, and I am not finding many boiler options that small. The boiler must be fueled by natural gas (my requirement) and have an AFUE of at least 82% (program requirement).

The only boiler I've found that closely matches these requirements is the Burnham Independence with a power vent (PIN3PV, 163 ft2 EDR). Next closest is a Peerless 63-03L (233 ft2 EDR). Does anyone have any thoughts on these or other options? (Noise is a concern as a bedroom is above the boiler.)

Note that the while the existing boiler is oversized at 266 square feet, it only cycles after running about 30-40 minutes, and it only runs that long when recovering from a deep setback. I figure that while oversized, the Peerless would still be an improvement.

Finally, homeowners and pros who work in Massachusetts should take note. $1900 rebates are available this summer for the replacement of 30+ year old residential steam boilers with new ones having an AFUE of at least 82% for gas or 84% for oil (for customers of Eversource or National Grid).

BostonSteamer

Did you take into account pick up factor when calculating your connected radiation? If not then you are almost right on the money with a peerless 63-03.

Chris_L

My understanding was that that pick up factor was already built into the boiler ratings. So I did not make any adjustments to the total EDR of the radiators. I just compared that number to the boiler spec sheets.

Did I do this wrong?

vaporvac

@Chris_L , you did it correctly.

Steamhead

We've had good results with that Peerless. The Independence power-vent unit is not designed to work with a chimney.

Dave0176

I've installed a lot Weil-McLain EG30 steam boilers, I like it a lot, works great for those smaller jobs. I still use both steam risers and a 3' drop header, it works quietly and very nice.

Chris_L

Thanks to all for your input. I missed the Weil-McClain in doing my research.

I do have some questions about how the current piping should be fixed, but will put them in another post with pictures.

Charlie from wmass

Post pictures of the boiler that's the best way to get a proper answer about piping it.

Charlie from wmass

The E30 is special order near me so plan ahead.

Robert O'Connor_12

Go with a Thermoflo
It's the Weil-McLain EG (with a different name plate) & it's $700 less!

j a_2

null
Agreed, beyond massive over kill...I have a pin3 in my garage used for 2 weeks,...It would need to have the electronic ign. Installed on it,...As well I have a 2 in.dropped header kit all made up in a box...I made up kits for near boiler piping and kept them in stock for years...Black steel and cast iron,.....

Chris_L

Thanks for the additional comments.

A couple people have said a 2" header would be sufficient for a boiler this small (roughly 200 square feet). Should I still specify a dropped header, or would that be overkill? I am assuming either way, there should be 2 risers from the boiler.

A couple other questions:
As you can see from the photo, the existing single riser from the header ends in a T at the mains. Does this really need to be replaced with two risers from a the new header? Dan says the T configuration results in a bouncing water line. But I really don't see it with the existing boiler. I would say it might bounce 1/2"-3/4" max. (The pipe insulation will be replaced, so that is not an issue with any piping work.)

The other photo shows the boiler controls. Since this is a millivolt system there are two pressuretrols. I realize the new boiler will be 24V. Since it will have only have one pressuretrol, can anyone explain what happens if that one switch fails in the on position? Is the thermostat the only thing that will stop the boiler from firing?

Robert O'Connor_12

You really need to have the asbestos abated and reinsulate it all first.
Imho, a boiler this small Thermoflo (or WM) Doesn't need both risers or a drop header piped. I believe it's a waste of money on a tiny one pipe system.
Use a 3" x 18" nipple out of 1 of the supply tappings
Screw a 3" x 2" reducing 90° ell on it and pipe the header in 2".
I would separate the bull head arrangement & use two 2" tees.
Be sure to remove skim plug & skim it & cap it.

Abracadabra

Chris_L said:

...
The other photo shows the boiler controls. Since this is a millivolt system there are two pressuretrols. I realize the new boiler will be 24V. Since it will have only have one pressuretrol, can anyone explain what happens if that one switch fails in the on position? Is the thermostat the only thing that will stop the boiler from firing?

There's no reason you can't have 2 pressuretrols connected in series on the safety circuit... In fact, I'd make the primary a vaporstat and the backup the pressuretrol.

Larry_52

IMO, would have a hard time giving up the benefits of a thermopile.

Chris_L

@Larry, I like the theromopile, too. And I don't like to replace things that aren't broken, but the incentive to replace a 30+ year old boiler with a better-sized new one seems too tempting.

@Abracadabra, I like your suggestion, but I am wondering if there is a way to wire a 24V system so a manual reset is required if a higher pressure trips the pressuretrol--assuming the pressuretrol that comes with the boiler is used along with the vaporstat. (With the millivolt system, the higher pressures shuts the gas valve off completely killing the pilot.) If there is something wrong with the vaporstat, I would rather have the boiler shut down than cycle at a higher pressure.

@Robert O'Connor, your answer makes sense, but if a single, 3" riser is coming out of the boiler, why not make the header 3", too, with two, 2" risers from the header to the mains?

Charlie from wmass

Because you need to vent all that air each cycle and there is no gain. The cost for the 2" vs the 3" is significant and onlworth while when you are close to 10 fps for your steam. They make 2 1/2" pipe and fittings for a reason.

Charlie from wmass

Upgrade save fuel be happy. Do not waste money with a bad installation or over kill.

Jack M

Those Weil-McLain and Williamson-Thermoflo boilers are 84% AFUE.
Is that the best he can do on a chimney? Is that a big jump from where he's at with a 30 year old boiler? Sounds like a lot of heat still going up that flue.

Fred

I understand the desire to take advantage of the rebate program and wanting a slightly more effecient boiler. I also understand that you 404B is 30 years old. I also have a 32 year old Burnham 404B with 9 sections, 866 Sq. Ft. steam rating. My only question would be will you get any value/savings from the new install? I am convinced that the newer boilers have an average life of about 12 to 15 years (if you're lucky). I think the Burnham 404B was designed based the older ethic that boilers should last upwards of 50 years like they did in times past. (Just my perspective based on anyone one who has experience with the 404, myself included). They are tanks and, while I may be wrong, I'm thinking mine will get to the ripe old age of 50. I realize it's anyone's guess but is it wise to spend money replacing something that still works fine just because there is a rebate available and is the effeciency savings enough to pay back the investment over the life of the product? There will likely be some kind of rebate available when you really do need a new boiler.

j a_2

If the boiler is riliabe, safe, and provides comfort... I would never replace it just to chase overblown rebates,.

Charlie from wmass

It is not efficient if it is 30 nor is it reliable

Jason_13

The iN3 is a chimney vented gas steam boiler. If happy with Burnham why change?

Chris_L

@Fred and others, I appreciate your perspectives. I haven't made any final decisions, and won't until I get few bids and understand the total cost.

The problem is that I need to make a decision with a lot of unknowns--how long will the existing boiler last; how long will a new one last; how long will the rebates last? Who knows? Further complicating this is a related incentive payment program (for now, anyway) to have the asbestos insulation removed as part of the work.

I suspect any efficiency improvements will come more from using the right boiler size than the AFUE of the new vs. old boiler. (@Jason, from the literature I've seen, the IN3 doesn't meet the 82% AFUE threshold when chimney vented.)

So, do new boilers really have a shorter life expectancy than old one? Or does it just seem that way on a site like this, which tends to attract homeowners having problems, rather than those for which everything is working fine.

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

It is not efficient if it is 30 nor is it reliable

Effeciency is an unknown since the way it was installed and maintained can certainly affect that but according to the boiler plate, my boiler is 80%. He is looking at boilers that are 82%. How long will it take to recover his investment with that additional 2% on a very small boiler?
As far as reliable, Mine is 32 years old, I have been here 24 years with 1 gas valve failure 20 years ago and no failures since. I don't know how it could be any more reliable. Don't know that the newer boilers can boast that kind of track record. Just another perspective.

ChrisJ

It's 30 years old and looks like it's piped improperly.

Even if it is close to the same AFUE being piped like that is bad and killing efficiency.

If it was mine, I'd do the EG-30 or whatever the Thermoflo equivlant is and I would use both risers. I know some say it's not needed but even Gerry Gill used both risers on his tiny Burnham.

Also, I've noticed with my boiler that I can run a higher water level with no negative effects. I can run it with the gauge glass almost full and still produce dry steam. Point being, that must increase efficiency because more of the block is absorbing heat.

Two risers has benefits, even on a itsy bitsy teeny weenie boiler in my opinion. Dan has also said this repeatedly, always use all of the tappings.


Here's Gerry Gill's boiler with both tappings in use AND a 4" drop header.

Fred

There has been a lot of discussion on this site relative to boilers only lasing about 15 years and numerous ones lastng anywhere from 8 to 12 years. In fairness though, who knows how long the majority of today's boiler will last, until it actually rots out? It's anyone's guess but the Pros on this site may well be able to put that question into perspective. They see and maintain a lot of boilers.

SWEI

Chris_L said:

I am wondering if there is a way to wire a 24V system so a manual reset is required if a higher pressure trips the pressuretrol

This would normally be done with a manual-reset pressuretrol.

assuming the pressuretrol that comes with the boiler is used along with the vaporstat.

Unfortunately, the models shipped with standard small boiler trim packages are not manual reset. You can fairly easily create a manual reset using a DPDT relay and a pushbutton.

Charlie from wmass

Weil McLain is 83 to 84 efficient. Sized right and installed properly it will save 15 to 20 percent of the fuel. The way the old boiler was piped how can you say keep it? I have no horse in this race yet I wouldn't suggest keeping that in your house. Just make sure you have the new one installed and sized properly.

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

Weil McLain is 83 to 84 efficient. Sized right and installed properly it will save 15 to 20 percent of the fuel. The way the old boiler was piped how can you say keep it? I have no horse in this race yet I wouldn't suggest keeping that in your house. Just make sure you have the new one installed and sized properly.

That piping needs to be corrected for sure, be it the current boiler or a new one, that cost is a given. All I'm saying is I wouldn't throw out one of the better built boilers just to chase a rebate. If it actually saves him 15% to 20% in fuel costs, he has to look at that relative to the cost of the new boiler and he needs to understand what the life of a new boiler actually is likely to be. He has several other factors he says he needs to consider, asbestos abatement incentives, right-sizing the boiler (if he can get something significantly closer to what he actually needs), etc. I just feel like the newer boilers seem to have an engineered life rather than being built to last like the 404. Benefits the boiler manufacturers who can manage a product/technology that is stagnant, but again just a personal perspective. I can't prove that. If there is product life data available somewhere, that would help immensly. It is a gut call for a homeowner without all the data.

ChrisJ

Is a 30 year old boiler "better built" than a current one?
I some how doubt it. From what I recall that all started going down hill in the 1970s.

I know the WM EG series like mine has been around for 30 years or so unchanged.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Is a 30 year old boiler "better built" than a current one?
I some how doubt it. From what I recall that all started going down hill in the 1970s.

I know the WM EG series like mine has been around for 30 years or so unchanged.

I suspect they were but, like I said, I can't prove it. A lot has changed in 30 years, some good, some not so much. Businesses have done lots of things to cut costs over the past 30 years, manufacturing was off-shored in those 30 years. Companies who continued to manufacture on-shore did things to stay competitive (at least to keep their costs down).
Some of which MAY have STARTED in the 70's but not all companies switched over night. Back in the 70's and 80's things didn't transition at the speed they do today. The company I worked for was on the verge of bankruptcy under the assumption that people would pay for quality and reliability. We have since become a throw-away society. Cheap just means we can buy more new "Cheap" sooner. As Hatterasguy says, its a race to the bottom.

Robert O'Connor_12

@Robert O'Connor, your answer makes sense, but if a single, 3" riser is coming out of the boiler, why not make the header 3", too, with two, 2" risers from the header to the mains?
You can make it 3". I just wouldn't, unless perhaps money wasn't an issue and then I would use both (3") tapping with a 4" drop header. I have done it this way and frankly it didn't make a bit of difference from the way I suggested. The manufacturers install instructions I believe use a 2" header btw. I like to use the 3" nipple because it slows down the velocity.

KC_Jones

I tore out a Weil Mclain and replaced with a Weil Mclain. Other than some controls (vent damper intermittent pilot etc.) those boilers were identical castings as near as I could tell. The old one was from 1982 so it was 32 years old. The only real efficiency gains they could have made was the vent damper. I didn't really see any other changes. As a side not out of curiosity I put the old burner tray into the new boiler and it was an exact fit...so yeah they haven't changed much.
As far as comments about race to the bottom and throw away, that isn't always true. I work for an American manufacturing company making industrial HVAC/Refrigeration equipment. I can tell you we build them to last. We want to build the best highest quality product on the market. We are more expensive than our competitors, but still get tons of business. We have better customer service and a better product, and as our President says that will make customers run to us and they do.

j a_2

I would have to agree on there not being to many changes on the old classics, kinda like that's why there still around...I would also venture to say there would have no changes except for the do-gooders getting there noses in where they have not a clue....As far as your company being a good one, that's great....But in the end big business cares about only one thing THE BOTTOM LINE. AKA AO smith....

j a_2

Funny you say that about maytag. He personally dedroyed national airlines back in the 70s..One of the many violent strikes in airline history...Never came close to touching a maytag product..Then came Frank Bormen and Frank Lorenzo who destroyed Eastern airlines...I know because I was a mechanic for them....I walked away and survived. Many lost a lot.....Why,because of coropate greed... After that it was then I realized I had the power to wake up each day and feed my family with my own hands and my own brains...plumbing and heating in my opinion is the best..I'm my area of Boston, there was never a single day I did not have work....

SWEI

I worked with a couple of Texas Air Corp refugees for awhile. The stories...

BobC

If you work for a company that gets sold try to find out if the new management team have MBA's from Harvard; if they do, RUN for the nearest door and don't look back. They will strip any value the company might have and leave the dessicated husk behind when they go on to their next victim.

In my opinion more lives have been destroyed by MBA mentality than our recent adventures in the middle east (military and civilian).

Bob

j a_2

Good old Frankie Lorenzo. Since I left the industry I do not fly....princiable and safety

j a_2

Spot on. Good old Frankie was a Harvard grad...he knew the laws so well he was able to steal...His judge buddies when he was taken to court gave him a hand slap,then they made laws against doing what he did again..The stocks became toilet paper....

Fred

KC Said:
I tore out a Weil Mclain and replaced with a Weil Mclain. Other than some controls (vent damper intermittent pilot etc.) those boilers were identical castings as near as I could tell.

They may look alike but I wonder if they are alike??? Do the blocks weigh the same? Are the new castings the same as they were 30 years ago? When you order parts, they always ask for the model # and Serial #. That's so they can determine if you get the cheap part or the cheaper part . I'm not targeting WM by any means. It just the way all the industries have become. Over the past 20 years so many companies add a good percentage of recycled metals to their virgin ores, under the guise of saving the ecology. What effect does that scrap have on the life of a cast iron product? Is it saving the ecology or just creating another recycle cycle sooner than it would have. There is a place for scrap metals, I just don't think it belongs in everything, especially those products that are considered durable goods and where heat, stress, expansion/contraction come into play. Something has changed. None of us expect to get 30 to 50 years out of a new boiler anymore. As a matter of fact, most of us have certain milestones that we look to as a successful purchase, those being:
- Milestone #1 :Does it work when we get it home/installed?
- Milestone #2 : Does it work for the next 30 days?
- Milestone #3 : Did it last through the warranty?
- Milestone #4 : Can we actually get support when we need it?
- Milestone #5 : Is the warranty worth the paper it was written on?
- Milestone #6 : Which product should we try next, hoping to have better luck?
- Not the way it should be, but I digress.