one pipe steam

JasonDickman

I installed a 5011b burnham on an old building. boiler works fine. problem is, is that the water level drops constantly within every run cycle to the point of the 247-2 feeding water in to the point in a weeks time the boiler is completely flooded. each return is 200 feet long. it takes between 12-15 minutes for condensate to return to the boiler. the water is mercy but not black or clear. there are some uninsulated steam mains towards the end of the run. am i dealing with a dirty water isssue, unwanted vacuum, steam vents not working properly or a combination. I stuck a garden hose into each return and flushed them out. Any pointers?

Jason D

Abracadabra

Was boiler skimmed properly after installation?

JasonDickman

yes. I did it per the install manual. I've skimmed it about twenty times. the level of clarity is the same at this point as it was on the old boiler. the water is constantly cloudy.

Abracadabra

what's the pH of the water? Did the system ever get chemicals added? Pics of boiler install and near boiler piping?

Charlie from wmass

Can you post photos of the boiler piping? How was the boiler sized?

Charlie from wmass

Is there a boiler feed pump or is it gravity returns?

JasonDickman

Gravity

JasonDickman

I sized it per the connected load which is 1831 sq ft of steam. the old on which was a 5014 wasn't even 20 years old had sections replaced two previous times and had another hole in the block. I'm assuming continuous rapid expansion created the multiple block failures.

JasonDickman

i put the nu calgon boiler cleaner in it after the install to clean out the oil. and dumped it in for additional skimmings there after. I do not know the boiler ph. the building super has stated that the water cloudiness was that way with the old boiler as well.

Charlie from wmass

Did you use 2 three inch risers to at least a 4" header with 2" equalizer and take off to system not between risers of the boiler?

Steamhead

If that was a hole in the block, you had a lot of fresh water coming into that system. It rotted the boiler out above the waterline. And it sounds like you still do.

Vacuum can hold water up in a system, but so can high steam pressure. If there are any vacuum air vents on this system, change them to standard vents such as the Gorton #2. Also make sure the pressuretrol is set as low as it can go, and the pigtail is open.

The 247-2 water feeder isn't helping. I'd change this to a Hydrolevel Safeguard on a suitable manifold (or better yet, installed directly into the boiler in a suitable tapping) and a VXT water feeder. Besides its counter that shows how much water has been fed, you can also set the VXT to delay feeding until the condensate has come back. This will get you by while you troubleshoot the slow return.

Charlie from wmass

Are you skimming or blowing down the boiler?

JasonDickman

two 3" risers off block into a 4" main riser. 2/12" equalizer with 3" wet return. this is piped per manual except wet return which they wanted 2" i think.

JasonDickman

i skimmed it through the skim port while rising the water slowly pushing it out the port.

Charlie from wmass

I say the feeder needs to go. Do what @Steamhead said.

Steamhead

That's a nice looking job.

Are those the ends of the steam mains dropping into a short wet return to the left of the boiler? If so, are they vented?

JasonDickman

they are dropping into the wet return and that pipe is about 8 feet long which enters on the right side of the block. yes they are vented with what i don't know. i do hear steam being vented out them at some point during the call of heat.

thank you

JasonDickman

As I'm reading I thought back to what I've noticed while it runs...I have the sight glass marked for normal water level which is the middle. When it fires right before it starts to make steam the water level rises about an inch. Is this normal for that much expansion?

Fred

The water in my Burnham does rise a bit at the beginning of a cycle. I don't see a Pressuretrol or Vaporstat on that system. Where is it? Is it above the water line?
The one thing I have noticed with Burnham is that they are super sensitive to oils on the surface of the water and need dto be skimmed very, very slowly for several hours and multiple times. Are you skimming it slowly? A stream of water out of the skim port, smaller than the diameter of a pencil.
Also, Burnham usually says water level should be about 2/3's to 3/4 the way up the sight glass.
EDIT: Show us the other end of the boiler, the equalier and Hartford loop.

jumper

Automatic feeders are bad. Redundant water level controls are good. Receivers can compensate for slow condensate return.

Charlie from wmass

VXT feeders are great. Love the built in meter.

Steamhead

JasonDickman said:

yes they are vented with what i don't know. i do hear steam being vented out them at some point during the call of heat.

That's worth investigating. Also get the length and diameter of the steam mains, and get back to us.

Inadequate venting can cause the boiler to build more pressure than it needs to distribute the steam against the pipes' friction losses. More pressure means more steam generated which takes more water from the boiler, which can cause water to be fed to keep the boiler operating at a safe level. When all that condensate gets back, your boiler floods.

JasonDickman

right side view. Do you need specific linear footage of pipe with the diameter as it reduces through out the building? or just the length for each one? i measured them two days ago and one run is 193' and the other is 205

Charlie from wmass

That plugged drip on the supply needs piped to the wet return.

Fred

I'm guessing that Hartford loop is above the boiler water line and steam/pressure keeps water from returning to the boiler until the heat cycle shuts down.

JasonDickman

Prior to the install that plugged drip had a close nipple with cap on it which was leaking so i plugged it. what would the purpose of running that to the wet return play? and the Hartford loop is slightly lower than the return hole on the block. what do you consider boiler water line? lowest permissible, the normal water level(which it is lower than that)? or does it need to be elvation wise lower than the entire block?

Charlie from wmass

The height of the Hartford loop is measured at the tee of the equalizer loop. The drip allows all the condensate caught in that pipe to drain instead of collapsing the steam. It appears that the supply is reduced on the horizontal going to the supply. Is the header 4" under that insulation, in the photo it looks to be all one size pipe?

Charlie from wmass

The waterline is the height of the normal water level. Is the boiler on blocks or right on the floor?

Fred

Actually the Hartford loop is better off being a couple inches below the Normal water line (the line where the boiler water level is when it is properly filled and the boiler is at rest). With a boiler and mains that size, I'm sure the condensate takes a while to get back to the boiler and in the meantime the water level in that boiler will drop as a reult of the steam leaving it.

Charlie from wmass

The height for the Hartford loop varies by manufacturer. Some measure it to the top of the tee others to the center. It is spelled out in the installation manual.

Charlie from wmass

Burnham has the top of the tee at 25 1/2" for that boiler. It also wants the first fitting at 51 1/2". I can not tell if you have that height from the photo.

Fred

JasonDickman said:

Prior to the install that plugged drip had a close nipple with cap on it which was leaking so i plugged it. what would the purpose of running that to the wet return play? and the Hartford loop is slightly lower than the return hole on the block. what do you consider boiler water line? lowest permissible, the normal water level(which it is lower than that)? or does it need to be elvation wise lower than the entire block?

The wet return is slightly below the return tapping in the block and that's fine, but the Hartford loop (Where it ties into that reducing Tee) is the area that needs to also be below the boiler's normal water line.

Abracadabra

If it takes a while for condensate to return to the boiler, you might need to pipe in a condensate tank. I know I've had to do with with some installs I've done with WeilMclains.

JasonDickman said:

it takes between 12-15 minutes for condensate to return to the boiler

Starting when? When steam starts exiting the header? That sounds a bit long. Looks like you have dry returns. It should be quicker than that. Not sure if Burnham shows it in their install manuals, but WM shows how to pipe in a condensate tank in theirs.

What was the previous boiler that was installed here?

Fred

@Abracadabra , I don't think the water can get back into the boiler and is stacking up in the wet return. Look at where his Hartford loop ties into the Equalier and look at the water level in the sight glass. looks like steam/pressure from the equalizer pushes the water back into the return until the boiler shuts down. In the meantime the steam flow reduces the water level in the boiler enough that it trips the auto feed before the heat cycle is complete. When thee cycle is done, the return water plus the added water all pushes back into the boiler.

Charlie from wmass

Shouldn't the water feeder be piped in 1" between the H and B tappings to check level accurately? The 1/2" connections are too small for that to work well.

JasonDickman

I realize now how the 247 should be piped in at the h and b tappings. At the time of install I did not have a diagram as to where the 247 should go so i did monkey see monkey do and out it back right where it was on the old boiler which was a burnham 5014. I will address that afte i get this water level issue fixed. i have the tee at 25 1/2 center elevation not 25 1/2 top elevation. i do have the first fitting on top of the boiler within specs of the install maual. it is two three inch tying into a 4" horizontal then four inch up to the main. it takes 12-15 minutes with fresh 50 degree water in it for the condensate to return. my 4" riser ties into the existing pipe which is 6" where the drip is.

JasonDickman

Fred as to the condensate stacking up in the wet return? i did time it when the 67 shut it off on low water. it takes ten plus minutes for the water level to return to the start position which is mid level on the sight glass. if it were being pushed or trapped in the near by return from the steam pushing it out, wouldn' the water level return to normal much faster? is the tee supposed to be 251/2 to center or top off tee?

JasonDickman

I dont know if this condensate return thing is a pre existing problem by the previous two installers putting a bandaid on this issue by putting in such a bigger boiler(5014) or is this something from my install. what roll does in correctly operating radiator vents, faulty radiator valves and there are four rads leaking play in trapping condensate? I noticed water gurgling in the three i checked last night. should i hear a water running or gurgling noise coming from the rads?

Fred

You should not hear any gurgling. Make sure there is pitch on those radiators and all the run-outs and that the pressure is set for Cut-out at no more than 1.5PSI with a cut-in of .5PSI.
As far as the heigth of the Hartford loop, the top of that loop needs to be under the normal water level (when the boiler is at rest. See what the manual says. I have a Burnham and mine says 23-1/2 from the bottom of the boiler to the middle of the Tee. I'm sure the specs vary depending on the boiler.

Abracadabra

Fred said:

@Abracadabra , I don't think the water can get back into the boiler and is stacking up in the wet return...

Water will stack up only 28" at 1psi and 42" at 1.5psi. Where is the pressuretrol set?

There doesn't look to be too many wet returns.. Looks like all dry returns to me. What I did notice after further zooming in on the photos is that the feeder and LWCO are on opposite sides of the boiler. Shouldn't those be on the same side of the boiler and the side that the return and equalizer are on? Last month, at the request of a customer, I installed a sight glass on both sides of a WM LGB21. While boiler was steaming, there was a decent amount of difference in the water line between the left and right side of the boiler. The return side was higher and also more stable. The non-return side was much lower and very bouncy.

Fred

Abracadabra said:

Fred said:

@Abracadabra , I don't think the water can get back into the boiler and is stacking up in the wet return...

Water will stack up only 28" at 1psi and 42" at 1.5psi. Where is the pressuretrol set?

There doesn't look to be too many wet returns.. Looks like all dry returns to me. What I did notice after further zooming in on the photos is that the feeder and LWCO are on opposite sides of the boiler. Shouldn't those be on the same side of the boiler and the side that the return and equalizer are on? Last month, at the request of a customer, I installed a sight glass on both sides of a WM LGB21. While boiler was steaming, there was a decent amount of difference in the water line between the left and right side of the boiler. The return side was higher and also more stable. The non-return side was much lower and very bouncy.

The LWCO doesn't need to be on the same side as the return and the equalizer. There shouldn't be enough difference in the water levels across the boiler to trip the LWCO unless it really does need water. Certainly the auto feed doesn't need to be on the same side as the LWCO since it is tripped by the LWCO, it will only work by a shut down of the LWCO regardless of its location on the boiler.