help with new boiler

bink

I looking for advice on what to do for best air removal. My current boiler a trianco with three zone valves which has had problems with air in the pipes and baseboard. Currently the way the feed to the expansion tank is routed most of this air is winding up in the expansion tank. I can hear a slug of air go into this tank abut once a day.
The new system will be different with Spiral vent on the push side and a bladder type tank for expansion. Looking for thoughts on whether the Spiral vent will remove the air or if its possible that without the expansion tank absorbing the excess air will I have air return to the baseboard gurgling.

Should I request the installer to keep the old expansion tank there not hooked up just in case there is a problem.

Really appreciate any thoughts on what I should do.

Paul48

Follow manufacturers instructions for piping the new boiler. Follow the spirovent manufacturers instructions for placement. Maintain the system at the correct pressure, and you will not have problems with air again.

bink

thanks paul48. It was important for me to verify what the salesman told me which is the same info.
thanks for response

j a_2

Get a copy of pumping away, available here in the book section…I completlely agree with paul48..By the book should be minimum standards….With the bladder you can now install coin vents….Is this all baseboard….Consider a variable speed pump, espically with zone valves….The more info you post ,the better ,less generic the answers you get..

bink

Yes it is all baseboard. There are three zones for three levels typical split level. Interesting about the variable speed circulator.
What controls the speed.

bink

Additional, the current set up has the circulator on the return side. There is air scoop on the boiler out pipe. On top of the air scoop is automatic bleeder on top which recently was leaking and I believe let a lot of air into the system.

Zman

The tank on the "push side" is a problem.
You should always pump away from the expansion tank.
air cannot enter the system unless the pressure is negative.
Posting a picture of you current setup would help...

bink

Pictures

bink

Pictures

bink

Pictures

bink

Pictures tank from top boiler

bink

More pictures tank to top of boiler

njtommy

A variable speed works manly off of a Delta T. From the supply to the return. Most system with copper fin tube your looking for 20 degree delta t. There will be two sensors attached to the pump on the supply piping and the other on the return piping. The pump will turn on and ramp up to its max speed then once it can sense the temps it will slow down and maintain a 20 degree delta t. The nice part for you is that you have 3 zones. So if one zone calles it will run slower. Once your second and third zones call the pump will ramp up to maintain that 20 degree delta t. It helps make your system run more efficient. But the pump can't just be thrown in. You need to make sure the pump can handle the feet of head of ur piping system and of course ur gpm too.

Paul48

That scoop is useless piped as it is. It's not that difficult, but for some reason, installers will not read the directions.

bink

Thanks Paul 48 and njtommy. I am learning.

Paul48

bink........Just venting, sorry. You can get most I&O manuals online. They all have recommended piping in them, but we still see boilers installed by so-called pros, that are completely butchered. They do leave the unopened manual packet with the homeowner though.

bink

Paul 48. From doing a little research The install is critical . As a homeowner you want to trust the pro by

bink

Sorry my screen locked And did not complete the comment. I can see that the system I have was not done correctly. Looking to resolve these problems when a new system is installed.

Paul48

The good thing is...you have time. Educate yourself, you'll find it very interesting. Start with Taco's FloPro University. It's free and they have online tutorials, that will take you through step by step. If you're having trouble grasping a concept, ask here. There are some really smart folks here. Start with the section "Hydronics Step by Step"

icesailor

Paul48 said:

That scoop is useless piped as it is. It's not that difficult, but for some reason, installers will not read the directions.

40 years ago, that's how the instructions said to install them. That installation looks about right. Other than the Expansion tank isn't hung off the air scoop, it looks right for the Era.

What's the system pressure? Is it high enough? Where is all this air coming from after 40 years? The leaking float vents? Or auto vents on the second floor?

How is the expansion tank connected to the boiler? It isn't shown in the photos. It shows a 3/4"line coming up to the Exp. Tank but not where it comes from. It should be connected where the Pres. Relief valve is to vent the air (where does it come from?) out of the boiler and into the tank with the relief valve piped off the side and up.

Paul48

Let's see if we can really confuse the OP.

bink

is hard to see from the photo but the tank is connected as icesailor describes from the relief valve. I'll post a better picture if I can. I feel there must be air getting sucked in somewhere but possibly came from bad vent above the scoop. That introduced a lot of air in November last year. I Hoping that is all it was but I did have air problems a while ago. When the pipe from the expansion tank was rerouted to horizontally then up to the tank the air went to the tank. That worked for many years . My concern is when the new system is installed will it still have air problems or will the spralvent take care of it.

icesailor

Paul48 said:

Let's see if we can really confuse the OP.

The photo is difficult for old tired eyes.

The relief valve is being used as the air vent. The venting line to the expansion tank is coming off the relief valve line on the side where it is ineffective at sensing air to the expansion tank. The run of the tee with the RP valve should continue to the expansion tank, the branch of the tee should have a nipples and a ell so that the PR valve in in the vertical position and have the full seat exposed to the water pressure.

You can't see the connection behind the gauge. The gauge doesn't look like it has a lot of pressure in the system.

Paul48

He's having the boiler replaced.

bink

Here is better picture. There is about 12 psi on the gage.Paul 48. From doing a little research The install is critical . As a homeowner you want to trust the pro by

bink

Picture at relief to tank. Thanks for your help.

icesailor

The relief valve has been leaking, judging by the rust stains on the top of the boiler. The gauge may read 12# when it is cold. How high did it go before the boiler shut off on high limit.

It matters not one to me. All the Amtrol #300o Extrol kits I installed and saw installed. Never a problem. If it was a problem with air in a system, I went and found it. It never had anything to do with an airscoop with a leaking float vent. Any ever tried to get a Spirovent out because it had rust running down the side and the float seat was fouled? It takes a 3' pipe wrench, backed up. If you can get the wrench in place. They sell repair kits for them. If you can get the old one out. Put in a 1/2" IPS coupling, a nipple and reducing ell and a float vent on it. Works just like new. And the system doesn't lock up with air.

Give a price with all those jewelry accessories and drive by, Notice the truck with "New Air Solutions LLC" on the side, with NAS,LLC putting in a 90+ WA furnace with vane/zone dampers in the R-5 Flex duct. Way undersized of course.

JMO.

People will pay for anything they want. Just not everything. You just have to be on the correct side of the equation.

bink

I appreciate all of the posts. Signed up to learn which I have. As suggested I ordered the book pumping away. Also I contacted taco to see if I can sign up for the online classes.
Thanks to all