runtal or myson or Slant Fin baseboard?

FMA124

I keep looking at the BTU output and can not seem to find how it is worth paying up for the Runtal baseboard units. Adding a couple of more feet of the regular baseboard is a fraction of the price. Am I missing anything here? do these new Runtal or Myson radiators stay hotter longer for more efficiency? is it just he look? Also can I mix the SlantFin 3/4' baseboard with a Runtal or Myson at 1/2'?

icesailor

As long as a customer is willing to pay for it, anything works.

When it comes to cost Vs. aesthetics, you'd be surprised at what some people aren't willing to pay for. You never know going in what someone is willing to pay for. That's understanding that you provide the product. If they buy it, it won't matter.

That thing about "How can you expect me to soar with eagles, when all I have to work with is turkeys" comes to mind. If you are supplying the materials and your knowledge, price with the turkeys, and show them how you and they can soar with eagles. Let the customers see how high you can take them soaring.

FMA124

have you guys installed the Runtal and Myson? are there bid differences in it because there are in the price. -- Also will there be problems mixing the Runtal and SlantFin in the same loop because one is 3/4' and the other is 1/2'?

icesailor

"" Some of the fellows have done that and will comment. ""

When you DO do that, be sure to run a 3/4" main with 1/2" risers to match the emitter inlets. Series loop as many as you can possibly put on. 15 Panel Radiators is a good odd number. Put the thermostat in the room fed first. Best if it is a room not used as much as a heavily used room. So the unused room can be satisfied before the used room. The first emitters can get really hot and the end ones can be cold. Big hydraulic mining pumps can be used to improve the flow, but they are noisy and don't completely solve the problem. Or so I've seen.

If you see a row of 007's and then a 0010 or 0014, look no farther. It can't be reasonably resolved without a major re-pipe.

What were they thinking?

FMA124

icesailor said:

"" Some of the fellows have done that and will comment. ""

When you DO do that, be sure to run a 3/4" main with 1/2" risers to match the emitter inlets. Series loop as many as you can possibly put on. 15 Panel Radiators is a good odd number. Put the thermostat in the room fed first. Best if it is a room not used as much as a heavily used room. So the unused room can be satisfied before the used room. The first emitters can get really hot and the end ones can be cold. Big hydraulic mining pumps can be used to improve the flow, but they are noisy and don't completely solve the problem. Or so I've seen.

If you see a row of 007's and then a 0010 or 0014, look no farther. It can't be reasonably resolved without a major re-pipe.

What were they thinking?

I am planning on trying to do this myself... I was going to do Slanfin in the bedrooms and try and do the Runtal or Myson in the Entryway, Kitchen and Dining room ... any advise or thoughts would be greatly appreciated

icesailor

IMO, Series Loop the Slant/Fin. Reverse return or Monoflow the rest. But every job is different. No two installers think alike.

Paul Pollets

Copper fin tube baseboard was designed for tract homes in the late 40's and 50's. It was inexpensive and cost less than a steam installation. Runtal, Myson, DiaNorm were Euro alternatives to BB. They cost more, require parallel or reverse return piping for correct operation, and are usually controlled by a TRV.
Putting the Euro radiators on the same loop as BB usually doesn't work well. Series piping may be cheaper to install, but compromises the radiator outputs. If your budget is for BB, so be it. If you can spend more on the Euro rads, they look better and smaller space is required for installation. If the piping to the rads is not carefully considered and executed, it won't matter what the radiator looks like. DiaNorm has some decent piping diagrams at www.heatlines.com

jumper

Radiator radiates somewhat.May be preferable to fin tube which mainly convects.

Leo_G

2 things. The Runtal, et.al. are radiators. So they need not run at 180* to perform at peak efficiency. Slant fin, being a convector, tends to run best at higher temps and generally has a larger deltaT. We have successfully mixed these in a series loop by putting the convectors first, no more then 12 -15 feet, then piping in the rads. Not the best situation, but for a tight costing project, where the customer wants the look of the rad in the public area, it can be done.

SWEI

As @jumper mentioned, panel radiators run at lower temps and to many of us, provide better comfort. Oh, and they're hardly new. We use a lot of Myson Select here, and find the price to be a pretty easy sell. Size them properly and then offer TRV's as an option. They can always be added later if needed.

Compare the cost with a quality high output (low water temp) baseboard and they come out looking OK.

kev

Can RUNTAL radiators be piped with a mono flow system? looking at a job now that specs replacing baseboard with runtal units. Piping is series loop now. Thinking of joining piping below floor and installing mono flow tees to rads.

SWEI

Yes, but... Home run or reverse return with PEX is probably faster -- and will save you some money on radiators.

jonny88

Had success with Dianorm but Swei I will try Myson on next job.Unfortunatly I find panel rads are a hard sell due to price but boy do they work and look great.

SWEI

The basic Myson Select is affordable IME. The other models are something we always offer as an upsell that rarely gets taken (at least in this market.)

jonny88

Thanks Swei as where I live (long Island)baseboard is the norm in peoples homes.Nice to offer something different.

j a_2

Panel rads with home runs and a mixing station,is a great way to go…you can run it at a different temp than the baseboard ,as said baseboard is designed with 180/160 anything less you will need to recalc the heat loss and add liner feet..What kind of boiler are you running?

icesailor

j a said:

Panel rads with home runs and a mixing station,is a great way to go…you can run it at a different temp than the baseboard ,as said baseboard is designed with 180/160 anything less you will need to recalc the heat loss and add liner feet..What kind of boiler are you running?

Baseboard may be designed at 180/160. but the building is way over-rated for actual heat loss, making the baseboard way too large. It can usually be run at temperatures way below the "designed" 180/160. You need to recalculate the building and compare installed radiation for each room and go from there. When operating at 1/2 the OAT design temperature, a properly designed and installed emitting system is 50% oversized. All buildings should be required to have ODR. It just needs to automatically go UP if you decide to raise the IAT. Not to just go UP when the OAT goes down. When that happens, it will be a fine thing.

Don't throw out the baby just because you think the bath water is dirty or too cold.

j a_2

icesailor said:

j a said:

Panel rads with home runs and a mixing station,is a great way to go…you can run it at a different temp than the baseboard ,as said baseboard is designed with 180/160 anything less you will need to recalc the heat loss and add liner feet..What kind of boiler are you running?

Baseboard may be designed at 180/160. but the building is way over-rated for actual heat loss, making the baseboard way too large. It can usually be run at temperatures way below the "designed" 180/160. You need to recalculate the building and compare installed radiation for each room and go from there. When operating at 1/2 the OAT design temperature, a properly designed and installed emitting system is 50% oversized. All buildings should be required to have ODR. It just needs to automatically go UP if you decide to raise the IAT. Not to just go UP when the OAT goes down. When that happens, it will be a fine thing.

Don't throw out the baby just because you think the bath water is dirty or too cold.

That sir is very interesting, if out door reset is ever required and I do not think it should be,there will be a lot of unhappy people out here…I would never think of putting a outdoor reset on a older couples home,who have been used to and expect nice warm radiators….You don’t just add a reset control and walk away, you need to take into consideration other things like boiler bypass/stack temps, and most of all COMFORT….

icesailor

I know that. There's more than one way of doing "Re-Set".

If you "reset" the boiler controls, (which is just a way to override the High Limit Control, the system temperature goes UP when the OAT goes DOWN. If the burner is run off a thermostat, regardless of what the inside temperature, the thermostat controls the inside temperature. With straight ODR, you are trying to control the SWT with a control on the Outside. If you adjust the reset ratio curve, it will make the Reset Control think it is colder outside and increase the SWT and if it gets hot, the thermostat shuts it off.

There's no reason to make old people cold. Young ones either.

ODR controls today are only a half a control.

njtommy

check this stuff out it blows any other baseboard out of the park with its design and BTU out put. Also recommend pulling a home run to each section from a manifold. single loop systems are a thing of the past.

http://www.smithsenvironmental.com/ES_HeatEdge4cBro_SM_4.pdf

icesailor

Everything that Smith's Environmental makes and sells is quality.

They have wall mounted fan coil cabinets that are reasonably priced and are super quiet.

They sell a floor mounted fan coil that has no equal. A strictly floor unit. Not a one size fits all coil in a cabinet.

j a_2

Agree that is some nice stuff…And I wouldn’t think twice about using it, in its proper location….Me I just love the cast iron….To bad so much of it on its way to china….I always said, let the house design the system…NJTOMMY, I also like the home runs, on a remodel…Yanks looking good this year? Not much hope for the sox, no pitching,yet….