Gravity? Not?

FranklinD

I've been thinking on this for awhile, but I'm still not sure.

My house was built in 1914. I assume the heating system (hot water, steel pipes, cast iron rads) is original, especially because this house has no fireplaces. May have had a coal stove in the kitchen (found a pie plate on the chimney when I took the cheap paneling off last year).

My heating pipes start at the boiler (supply and return) as 3" steel. There are tee's at every runout to a radiator (one on the supply, one on the return). At each tee, the main drops a size (for example: first runout is the kitchen radiator, so 3" into the tee, 1" out to radiator, 2-1/2" out of tee continuing on down the main). The return is identical.

The runouts to all the radiators are piped in 3/4" steel, with the exception of the living room and kitchen which are 1" (both have larger rads ~~90 EDR). 2 story house.

What I'm wondering is, would this have been a gravity system? Is 1914 too early to be pumped, or would this have been a candidate for Honeywell's infamous 'Heat Generator' (higher temps to promote faster circulation)?

Purely a historical question. The house I grew up in had gravity hot water and the original boiler (no circ) until the late 90's...and the smallest supply or return pipe in that system is 1.5".

I'm just curious if they did manage gravity circ with pipe that small, or if the house may have had a very (VERY) early pumped setup.

It's a smallish house, 1600 sq feet on two finished floors, with 439 sq ft EDR.

Any wisdom, thoughts, etc?

Thanks!

Ironman

Pumping didn't come along in homes until the thirtys, so it's a converted gravity system. Had it been available, you wouldn't have needed 3" mains.

JUGHNE

If you have 3" pipe sloping upward from the boiler I would guess it was a gravity flow system. In 1914 pumps and even electricity were scarce. Most had 2 supply and 2 return lines. There may be evidence of an open expansion tank in attic or closet.
Is that 1600 x 2 floors or 800 per floor?

Even 100 years ago you would not want to thread 3" by hand unless you had to. 2" was probably the "friendly" size to use.

FranklinD

Honestly the 3" is only about a total of 6 feet to the first set of tee's.

Correct on the two supplies and two returns. One pair runs east, the other west (though the west pair starts as 2" and only serves 3 rads).

The house is about 800 sq ft per floor with 2 'occupied' floors. The basement is unfinished and the 3rd floor (attic) was finished at some point but the 2 rooms are served by electric baseboard that we've never turned on -- mostly used for storage for now. They did include the 3rd floor as 'finished' in the real estate stuff when we bought it, so that would bring the total sq ft to a shade over 2000.

I couldn't help but wonder on the pumped vs gravity since 3/4" pipe seems awfully small for that.

I also still can't find a sign of an expansion tank, nor a connection for one anywhere on the system, but as I said, the attic was redone at some point. There was an ancient (and I mean very ancient) compression tank above the boiler when we moved in, since replaced along with the 34 yr old WM boiler. There was no date on the tank, so maybe it was replaced in '80 with the original boiler. I wish I knew. It was steel, not copper.

Thanks for the input, folks. I love the historical aspect of this stuff.

JUGHNE

Gravity will move a lot of water thru 3/4" especially for the 2nd floor, sometimes more than you want.

icesailor

JUGHNE said:

If you have 3" pipe sloping upward from the boiler I would guess it was a gravity flow system. In 1914 pumps and even electricity were scarce. Most had 2 supply and 2 return lines. There may be evidence of an open expansion tank in attic or closet.
Is that 1600 x 2 floors or 800 per floor?

Even 100 years ago you would not want to thread 3" by hand unless you had to. 2" was probably the "friendly" size to use.

That was what "helpers" were for. Threading pipe. Those 2 1/2" to 4"geared die stocks had a 1" square drive connected to a 4 span extension to give you the leverage to turn the threader. They still do it that way today. They just use a power drive now. If you've never experienced threading a piece of 3" black pipe with a geared threader and no power drive, you really haven't paid your dues.

1914, it was gravity coal. In 1932, Timkin Silent Automatic Burners were developed to convert coal boilers to oil. Your system was installed before that.

http://www.google.com/patents/US1888693

Ironman

"I also still can't find a sign of an expansion tank, nor a connection for one anywhere on the system, but as I said, the attic was redone at some point. There was an ancient (and I mean very ancient) compression tank above the boiler when we moved in, since replaced along with the 34 yr old WM boiler. There was no date on the tank, so maybe it was replaced in '80 with the original boiler. I wish I knew. It was steel, not copper."



"Thanks for the input, folks. I love the historical aspect of this stuff."

Some of the old gravity systems did not have an expansion tank. Instead, they left about an inch of air in the top of the rads to give a cushion for expansion. If someone didn't know the system and bled all the air out, then the relief valve would start dumping and they couldn't figure out what was wrong.

I've got a customer that had a hundred year old gravity system that we converted to forced flow with a mod/con about 5 years ago. It was setup this way without an expansion tank. It still has the original ornamental rads. The one in the foyer is curved 90 degrees.

I love the skill and craftsmanship that existed back then.

JUGHNE

One system I maintain is a church rectory. It is only used as an office 4 days a week on average. The 2nd floor is seldom used. The rad valves when completely off still allow some water to prevent freezing. (By original design I believe). I do not bleed them of all air and they do not heat much. So this keeps the 2nd floor cooler. In my mind this is saving BTU's???

I check this every week when temps are low to make sure some water is moving in the coldest rooms.

The bathroom rad is fully bled as someone may stay over maybe 6 nites per season.
All the 2nd floor riser pipes are 3/4" by the way. This was a gravity conversion.

FranklinD

Interesting stuff, and thanks for taking the time to reply.

I'm guessing that perhaps none of these systems had expansion tanks (my house, and 2 others on the block, were built at the same time with the same layout and heating system). I've been in one of them and same thing, no extra tee's or fittings that would indicate a tank further up.

I've read Dan's blog entry about having no tank...probably makes sense for mine since all but 2 radiators are piped bottom to bottom. The two that are piped top to bottom are at the ends of the loops (one at the end of the west loop, one at the end of the east loop).

My radiators aren't ornate at all...wish they were. Just the standard run of the mill American Radiator Co rounded top, 3 column units. One had been removed from the bathroom, and I sourced one from a friend doing a remodel (he replaced it with a towel rack unit). I stripped and refinished it...it's an ARCO 'Recoco' style (I think that's the spelling). Very beautiful scrollwork.

I did notice on a valve I had replaced that the 'off' position has an 1/16" bleed hole through it...I figured that must be to allow a tiny bit of flow to prevent freezing if the radiator is turned off. The new valve I installed also has a bleed passage through it in the 'off' position (a Matco-Norca valve).

Henry

There were a number of systems that used the toilet tank on the upper floor to keep the system filled and as an expansion tank. We called them here Richelieu toilet tanks. The bottom of the tank had an 1 1/4 pipe that went down to the toilet. Near the top on the left side was the fill system (ballcock). On the right side was a 1 inch tapping below the level of the overflow. The tanks were made of wood and lined with copper. My father restored a few of them.

SWEI

Fascinating, Henry. Do you by chance have any photos or brochures of this "interesting" design?

Henry

I will check at home later and I will look in my collection of Audels

icesailor

Henry said:

There were a number of systems that used the toilet tank on the upper floor to keep the system filled and as an expansion tank. We called them here Richelieu toilet tanks. The bottom of the tank had an 1 1/4 pipe that went down to the toilet. Near the top on the left side was the fill system (ballcock). On the right side was a 1 inch tapping below the level of the overflow. The tanks were made of wood and lined with copper. My father restored a few of them.

Was that in the Land Above The 49th Parallel? (0r 45th Parallell, depending on where you live)? Wooden tanks with copper liners were usually high flush tanks. That must have been when the European Settlers (French) moved indoors and scrapped the little house outback. I used to see Durock and Douglas high flush tank toilets with the horn on the bowl. It was always to get rid of stink and connected to a piece of galvanized conductor pipe. Or so I thought. I also wondered. Those Victorians, things were pretty stinky back then. It makes some sense that someone might connect an overflow to a toilet bowl. It might work as long as the bowl didn't have a stinky diaper in it. Anyone remember cloth diapers? You washed them in the clothes washer and re-used them. You didn't buy a box of Hugee's at the corner market in those days.

JUGHNE

Cloth diapers were in our house for many years. You emptied the solids into the WC, don't let go of the corner as you flushed for the first rinse, then into the Clorox soak bucket. You folded them differently as the child grew. Today the safety pins would probably be considered a hazard to even have in the house.
Hugees were for traveling only.

icesailor

Look around for things that don't belong. Those Neanderthals didn't do anything without a reason. Look up at the sub-flooring over the boiler area for any unfilled holes. Or odd pieces of board, nailed to the subfloor to cover pipe holes.

When they renovated the attic, they probably removed the overflow tank. If you saw the old boiler, it would have a great big round gauge with a big red needle you could set and marked off in feet of altitude. You moved the red removable arrow to the maximum level to fill, and filled it until the black arrow was at the red arrow. If you went higher, the tank overflowed. Most Tridicator gauges today have the adjustment to set the height. They are marked off in PSI gauge pressure and Feet of Altitude.

If there are a lot of other houses around like yours, try to get into some. Especially ones that don't have the major attic renovation that yours has. You'll probably find signs of it.

If you know what you are looking at, you can spot things almost immediately. The fun of exploring old houses.

If you ever saw a set of radiator lifters/carriers, you'd probably walk by them on your way to throwing them in a dumpster. But those old dead guys depended on them. Let alone, how they worked.

More, modern, baseboard squeezers. You need a scrap 2X4 block to use them. Don't squeeze without a block of wood. And 2 pieces of 3/4" black pipe 12 to 18" long.

JUGHNE

Some overflow/expansion tanks had their overflow pipe (just like a toilet tank overflow tube) piped directly into the sewer lines. Probably buried inside a wall and connected to the DWV system. There should be a hole in the floor or maybe it is still connected, (would have been 1 to 1 1/4 iron pipe). If not capped in the attic then could have sewer gas smell. There would be the "standpipe" itself next to it. Would have been connected to the supply?? maybe at the boiler. and removed with new boiler change out.

Now Ice would you expound on "baseboard squeezers"??

EBEBRATT-Ed

Icesailor is right on. they threaded plenty of big pipe in the old days. Theres a building in town that was an old hotel. It's full of 4",6" 8" pipe all threaded. The building dates to the early 1900s. I have herd that they pulled strings for every pipe run and measured everything in the field. Then did the cutting and threading in the shop (at least for the big stuff). hauled the "prefabbed " pipe to the job with a horse and wagon. and did the threading in the shop with steam or water power. they were putting this stuff in before there was electricity.

When my uncle died in 1978 we found papers when my grandfather had two boilers installed in a two family house with a total of 13 radiators---Total Cost $793.00 in 1918

And we think we got it tough

wogpa67

He's talking about the tool (other then the guy that's doing it) that pulls the cast iron BB sections together. We used the puller oak blocks and 10Lb sledge hammers, all depended on what, where and when you were doing it.

icesailor

JUGHNE said:

Cloth diapers were in our house for many years. You emptied the solids into the WC, don't let go of the corner as you flushed for the first rinse, then into the Clorox soak bucket. You folded them differently as the child grew. Today the safety pins would probably be considered a hazard to even have in the house.
Hugees were for traveling only.

Sometimes, you have to soak them because,,,,,

When I first got married, the first house I built only had one bathroom. If you walked by the bathroom and our big black Labrador retriever was gazing longingly into the toilet bowl, you knew someone had left a soaker in there. As soon as you took it out, and flushed it, the dog would drink and get on with his job of looking for the ladies.

He spread his DNA far and wide.

Henry

Here are a few interesting pics of gravity systems including a one pipe system. We have one large industrial building of 10 floors that had a one pipe system. Last year, we installed a new boiler room in a new space built on the roof and added a pumping system as it is being converted to condos. It was an engineered spec job. But it works. I can't find a picture of the "Richelieu" tank. But I will keep looking in my library.

icesailor

@Henry:

Your third photo is probably what you are thinking about. It was an attempt at making the system auto filling with something like a toilet tank with a ballcock to keep it full It still had a tank overflow.

With the toilet high flush tanks, they flushed out the bottom, and used this really cool "Swan Neck" device with a hole in the top of the neck. When the lever was pulled, the water in the tank held the Neck open. As the water poured down the long pipe to the bowl, momentum built up and between the water and the hole, the neck was sucked back over the hole. The same hole that is connected to the heating system where expanding water can rise up into the tank. The design of the tank could be used for one, but not both at the same time. They used a Douglas Ball Cock to maintain the water level. When they don't work, if you are asked to try to fix one, it will exercise your best repair skills.