Remodeling a basement Steam return question

Jackuvtrades

Hello All,
I am doing an extensive basement remodel, the boiler we have is a steam boiler, Crown, roughly 200,000 BTU.
The return is a wet return, thats connects 2 dry supply feeds/legs, and returns via one return, wet. prior to any modifications, we noticed the boiler constantly drawing in water from the feeder. upon examination discovered, close (black pipe) after the Hartford Loop that feeds back into the boiler, as rotted. so as we attempted to make the repair (with copper fittings), discovered the return line almost completely congested with decades of rust. Thus cut the return line on the opposite side of the basement where the both dry supplies feed into the wet return, and increased the return pitch (¼" per foot) back to the boiler in hope this would help reduce the amount of rust sitting in the return. This led to rapid cycling of the system with the line that feeds 2 boilers never getting beyond warm. After a day of cleaning the boiler and draining the boiler several times with no effect decided to get rid of the pitch, and make it level with the pipe as it enters the Hartford loop.

My question is #1 can I return the wet return where the dry supply only feeds a 2 radiators will a line back to the boiler and tie it into the return prior to the Hartford loop? The reason for this would be first I would reduce the box I have to make in a 7' ceiling with makes the ceiling drop to 6'6". Second with less of feet to travel I'm hoping that the shorter return back to the boiler will help increase the radiator temperates in that line, remember they only warm up.

#2 Can any radiators be installed in the basement as a source of heat? yes the radiator would be below the headers of the boiler.

#3 Is the water hammer that we are experiencing now more to do with more steam circulating now?? and the supply pitches where never altered.

Thank you,
Alex

nicholas bonham-carter

Some pictures of your layout, with a drawing would help us see what is happenning here.
Any wet return will not need any pitch, but will need a convenient valve (on a tee), for flushing draining purposes. You can use copper below the waterline, but there could be problems later with galvanic reactions-opinions here are divided on that.
Your water hammer is more likely caused by a sagging supply, trapping water, so get the pressure down, and examine every foot of a mis sloped area.--NBC

Jamie Hall

I'm having a little difficulty visualising your set up. However, I have three general comments while I wait for the diagram NBC asked for.

First, a dry return must be dry, and must be pitched to drain to a wet return somewhere.

Second, a dry return must be vented.

Third, and perhaps most important, a wet return must, in fact, be wet -- and that means that it must be below the lowest static water level in the boiler for its full length.

As NBC said, the water hammer is most likely a lack of pitch in a steam main -- but it could also be a lack of pitch in a dry return.

Jackuvtrades

pictures
sorry so many I believe in more is better than less, hope this helps.

Jackuvtrades

Pictures!!!!

Jackuvtrades

n

Jackuvtrades

Pictures

Jamie Hall

Hatterasguy said:

Jamie Hall said:

Second, a dry return must be vented.

Why would that be the case?

If you had all your vents on the main and none on the dry return, steam couldn't easily get into the dry return, but the condensate would have no issues with it.

Think about it. In a two pipe system, the air goes into the dry return after it leaves the radiators. But... if it can't get out of the dry return... where is it going to go? And if it can't get out of the dry return it can't get out of the radiators... and no heat.

Abracadabra

Jackuvtrades said:

After a day of cleaning the boiler and draining the boiler several times with no effect decided to get rid of the pitch, and make it level with the pipe as it enters the Hartford loop.
....
#3 Is the water hammer that we are experiencing now more to do with more steam circulating now?? and the supply pitches where never altered.

Thank you,
Alex

Am I to understand that the return is now at the level of the Hartford loop? If so, that's probably the source of the water hammer, as steam is now entering your returns.

Abracadabra

Ok... looked at all your pictures...

1 - Looks like some mains have been replaced with copper, I see come reducers on the mains, but they are not eccentric. Not knowing the direction of the mains, I would guess that you possibly have condensate sitting in mains. Since I see a vent on the right with main reduced with copper and black pipe on the left, I'm guessing steam/condensate flow left to right. They reducer will backup condensate, leading to hammer.

2 - What I believe is your hartford loop, is not with a close nipple. This will create hammer. There's a reason everyone does it with a close nipple (some do it with a wye).

It looks like the piping has been hacked up

KC_Jones

Also the steam tap coming off the boiler is connected into the top of the "Hartford loop" connection and there is an additional equalizer coming into the other side of the Hartford loop. That is probably contributing to hammering at the boiler. Honestly the way that is I can't figure out how the water is even getting back into the boiler except for when it shuts down. Also copper isn't supposed to be used for any steam carrying pipe. From what I can see you have way more to worry about with the heat than moving pipes for remodeling.

Fred

Aside from some of the wet returns being above the water line, that suedo Hartford loop (tee's off of the equalizer) being above the water line, the Pressuretrol is below the water line and probably water logged. I can't imagine that works.
I think you should put a hold on closing up walls and ceilings until you get the boiler piping issues resolved or you are going to find yourself tearing things open to fix them in fairly short order. JMHO

icesailor

What do you want said? About the hack plumbers doing unpermitted work in a basement? And their Hackaroo plumbing? Did they get into a purple primer fight and splash it all over the pipe?

Then, there's that 3X2X3" Heel Inlet tee. If that's used as a waste tee.I don't know of a single legitimate plumbing code that allows that fitting to be used as a waste tee. Only a Vent.