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nozzle

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drhvac
drhvac Member Posts: 190
I don't do allot of oil, but a good customer of mine owns a rental house and asked me if I would do a service on his furnace. I was going to change the filter, nozzle, pump strainer, do a combustion test and make sure it was burning properly. I went and looked at it the other day hoping it would say somewhere what nozzle it requireres, but it didn't. Besides taking it out, is there another way of telling what nozzle is in there? I took some numbers down off of the burner, and furnace. I would like to have the right nozzle when I go there. Thank you

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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,900
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    Post what you have, and we'll see.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    This is a small house about 700sq ft. The furnace is about 8 years old. I couldn't even find the name of the manufacturer anywhere but I did get some numbers off of the furnace. I took a picture of the nameplate on the furnace, hopefully I uploaded it correctly and you could read it. The burner is a becket afg serial 050721-23872. Thanks!
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    It has the nozzle right on the plate. Pick the right model number. It's probably the smallest size

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,900
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    That nameplate shows what nozzles to use- almost all the way to the right. You'll want to have all three possibilities with you. I suspect, however, such a small house would only need the smallest of the three. Make sure your stack temp doesn't go below about 350° F or so, and you should be OK.

    You will need to open that unit up and clean it if need be. Get the instruction book if you're not familiar with it.

    A combustion test on an oil-fired unit would start with a smoke test. That burner should not make any smoke or soot whatsoever.

    Despite the oilheat industry's constant shooting themselves in the foot, giving the gas guys an unrivaled field, we will still be servicing oil-fired units well into the future. Get some training while you still can.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    SWEI
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    now I could see where the nozzle size is, pictures a little blurry, could you guys make it out? I have taken a couple of oil classes in the past, and I'm always reading about them, the thing is I never get calls for them, all of the big oil companies around me have most of the oil customers. I wish I had more, I like getting dirty.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    This picture is a little more clear. How come it doesnt give you the btu`s? I'm assuming you have the flexibility of choosing what 3 nozzles they give you to choose from, and that will be the btus of the furnace?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    In my opinion and experience, be sure that whatever nozzles you get for that application with the AFG, get Delavan nozzles. Of the same spray angle and type. Don't let anyone sell you something different. The biggest problem I ever had with Beckett burners that were acting up were ones that someone had changed spray angles, types of spray, or manufacturers. Its worth a trip over to the site to get the information on what's there.

    When I would finish, I usually wrote the nozzle information on the jacket with a magic marker for later reference.

    Make sure that you stick your hand down the tube and feel the outside end of the combustion head. They tend to get a carbon buildup and you need to scrub it off (both sides) with a old copper fitting brush.

    IMO.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    Thanks ice sailor. Is Delevan a manufacturer of nozzles? For example if I'm replacing a gas valve, honeywell and white rodgers make gas valves that do the same thing, but even though I like honeywell, if the supplier only has a white rodgers in stock, your saying I should find a supplier that has honeywell ( delavan)? Did I use that analogy correctly?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
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    Delavan is a manufacturer, They are probably the most common ones available. When you see a "A", "B", or "W" after the spray angle, it's almost always a Delavan. Beckett has test fired their burners in that piece of equipment and has found the best nozzle type and style for that application. So, that's what the manufacturer specifies. At one time, almost ALL Carlin burners specified a brand, "Hago". They were sold to another nozzle manufacturer and the policy of ordering them was changed. You had to buy almost 200 nozzles of one type to get one size. Wholesalers dropped them. Delavan is the one.

    You can get the nozzles you want or need at Sid Harvey's. A store I went to stocked Delavan because they must have had a big demand for them. According to the Sid Harvey's web site, they only carry their old house brand. Which I personally found to be different on performance to a Delavan. That's just my observation.


    http://www.delavaninc.com/pdf/total_look.pdf
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    drhvac said:

    This picture is a little more clear. How come it doesnt give you the btu`s

    Second column shows GPH. Multiply by the heating value for the fuel (~139,000 for #2 oil) and you get the input rate in BTU/hr. Third column shows output BTU/hr, which (doing a bit of math) assumes an 82% efficiency. You might also notice that the first column (Model) indicates the nominal input rate (roughly.)
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
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    I read:

    .50 GPH 57,000 BTU .50 70'W @100#
    .65 GPH 74,000 BTU .65 70'B @140#
    .75 GPH 85,000 BTU .75 70'B @130#

    Regardless of what the efficiency is, that's one low fired little darlin' and whatever nozzle is in there, you should put the same size in. Unless you change the pump pressure and know what you're doing with a combustion analyzer.

    Its like the three baby bears. .75 is too hot, ,50 is too cold, and .65 is just right. Combustion efficiency wise.

    And if it is a Riello (which that furnace can be had with), you'll really need to be on your toesies.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    Unless I missed something, there are 2 spec, one for Riello, and one for Beckett. Which burner is on it?
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    Oops, OK, I now see that it is a Beckett
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    @billtwocase:

    Both Beckett and Riello are spec'ed with the same GPH nozzles. Its the settings and the nozzle angle and sprays that differ.

    Unless I worked on a whole tribe of those furnaces regularly, I would be checking out what it has for a nozzle. Those multiple rated boilers and furnaces can be a real PITA to service. I hate going on Safari to the Supply House and they don't have the specific one I need. Then they want me to buy a mixed box.

    Too many damn nozzles. I bought a lot of oddball sized nozzles from my wholesaler so I could get new strainers for good nozzles with plugged strainers. They were glad to get rid of the old nozzles, I was glad to get the strainers. I bought a bunch from an oil company that had a ton of oddball ones. Everyone wins.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    So if i pick up these 3 nozzles, I will be covered? Then depending on what nozzle is in there, I should check to make sure that the pressure corrosponds to it? If its a .65, the pressure should be 140#?


    .50 GPH 57,000 BTU .50 70'W @100#
    .65 GPH 74,000 BTU .65 70'B @140#
    .75 GPH 85,000 BTU .75 70'B @130#
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    This is such a small house, 57,000 is more than enough heat.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    I'm not suggesting what you use. I'm suggesting that as far as time is concerned (and time is money), I personally would want to know what is inside and being fired at. As far as Beckett's are concerned, sometimes, if you drop down a size (or go up a size) you have to make major changed inside the burner. It isn't easy to tell. My personal dislike for Becketts centers around people downsizing burners before I came along, they not running properly, and I having to second guess what someone did before me. I had experience. If I went to a problem location and found a 60 degree Hago nozzle in place, I knew that I might have some issues. I also found that just because something tested out OK and looked OK, didn't mean that it would stay that way. Callbacks are usually free. It was cheaper to get the same nozzle that Beckett spec's in their burner for that application than not having the right one and having to go get one. That's just how my mind works. Oil is easy, as long as you keep it simple. It stays easy.

    The #1 problem I found with oil burners is plugged nozzle strainers and wrong nozzles for the applications. After than. it was all easy. Far easier than gas.
  • A.J.
    A.J. Member Posts: 257
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    Becket has OEM guide that will give you a breakdown of all the manufactures that use their burners. You just have to know the model of the appliance and the manufacturer . They give you every thing, nozzle type, static plate, pump pressure, the works.
    If you do any amount of oil I would pick up a copy, all you would have to do is call them. They are very good about that.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    A.J. said:

    Becket has OEM guide that will give you a breakdown of all the manufactures that use their burners. You just have to know the model of the appliance and the manufacturer . They give you every thing, nozzle type, static plate, pump pressure, the works.
    If you do any amount of oil I would pick up a copy, all you would have to do is call them. They are very good about that.

    That's what I was sort of alluding to. That all burners run best when using the boiler and burner manufacturers specified nozzles and settings as a starting point. The OP said they weren't all that familiar with oil and was doing it for a friend. My suggestions are what I personally would do, no matter what. And that if it was running well, to be sure that the correct nozzle was in place. That my experience was that if someone put a "Universal Nozzle" like a 70' SS Hago nozzle in, it was probably wrong. The boiler plate showed what I said would be true.

    One thing about servicing oil burners, you're sure to have a lot of unused wrong nozzles. Most of which you will never, ever use. Unless you need the strainers off the small ones.

  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    There's more than just nozzle size. On AFG burners, if you drop below .65 GPH, you will typically have to install an air baffle on the fan. It is located right underneath the transformer and extends down and out almost to the fan and slows down the air flow going into the air tube. If the baffle is there, it should probably have the smallest nozzle.
    It should have the FO head on for those three combinations, but I have been surprised before. If it has the F3 head on it, I might lean towards the larger nozzle.

    Somewhere on the burner it should give you the airtube combination which you can reference with becket on their website. They will show you the recommended nozzle sizes for different combo's.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    I'm going to replace the nozzle with what ever is there assuming it's one of the three recommended on the nameplate. I didn't think I could go wrong if I installed any one of those the nozzles that is on the nameplate recommended by the manufacturer?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,442
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    No... sort of. Any time you change a nozzle, though -- even to one of the same size -- you should do a complete, metered combustion test and adjustment.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    icesailorbilltwocase
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    They usually put a sticker on the burner/boiler somewhere saying what it is shipped with. It might still be there.

    From the rating plate provided, it appears that the two upper firing rates have all the correct baffles inside. Probably the lowest too. But don't assume that on my say-so.

    What I would suggest is that if the nozzle is .65 GPH and a Delavan, I would leave it at that because it is in the middle. If it was a .75 GPH you would be safe dropping it to a .65 GPH because it appears from the plate that it has the correct baffles. But to drop down, it might not be right. And some of us have experience with dropping Beckett nozzles to below the recommended firing rates are, and not changing plates. Or experienced what happens when "Others" don't.

    Either way, prove your results with combustion analysis. Digital of course.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    ok, I did the service today, and it did need it bad. It was 8 years since the last service, so you could imagine how bad the filter and nozzle were! The nozzle was a .65, 70 b, so I replaced it with the same. Surprisingly the pump strainer wasnt bad, I just cleaned it a bit. I took the chimney pipe out and found it to be about 3/4 restricted, I filled a gallon size bucket more than half with stuff I took out of there. I also cleaned the head with a wire brush when the nozzle was out, and vacuumed out everything I had access too, there were several clean out access points. I did a before and after combustion analysis. I think the biggest difference was a better draft after the chimney was cleared out. I was going to do a temperature rise, but I knew it was going to be high, I have never seen a return so small in all the years I've been doing this, it was literally 10 x 3! That's it. I ran it for awhile after I was done, and I'm surprised it didn't go off on limit.

    Thanks for all your help guys!
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    Not according to the time stamp. I thing you gave it too much air. The stack temp is higher, lowering your efficiency. I assume the draft reading was at the breach. Also, was the ambient temperature really 82 degrees by the time you were done?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    The problem I had with my digital analyzer over my Wet Kit was that I needed to use my Smoke tester and Bacharach MZF draft tester on every test.

    You need to get the burner to smoke first, then then add air until the smoke goes away. Then, play with the draft regulator to set the draft in the breeching and over the fire.

    I'm not there. Maybe that's all you can get. Maybe I'm wrong. But I always tried to get 12% CO2 then if smoke, adjust the CO2 down to stop the smoking. The exhaust temperature is quite high. It was better on the first one. The restricted draft in the chimney shows what effect that less draft had. I always tried to start with the draft gate wide open and went from there.

    You did good though. Right or wrong, I played with my analyzer a lot to learn what I did. There's no substitute for a stand alone smoke tester if you do oil and can get smoke. Smoke usually is high on CO2 and CO which will lunch the sensors. The draft gauges like the big Bacharach one has a nice long hose, And a great big face/readout that you can see from far away. Any adjustment is instantly obvious. Not so obvious when running a combustion test. The O2 sensors are only good for so many tests. Every one is one less test until recalibration or sensor replacement.

    If you use the smoke tester, if the paper turns yellow, you have way too much air. When it turns black, not enough. You need to be somewhere in between. Its an art as much as a science.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    I think the stack temp being so high has allot to do with the lack of return air. 10x3 return, that's it. I did notice that my meter temp was high at 82. The only thing I could think caused it is after i did the first test, I had it mounted on the side of the furnace while I did the cleaning. Than I ran the furnace a couple minutes before I did the second test. It probably picked up some heat off of the side of the furnace.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    That might be a good call. But open the filter door and see if the sound makes a significant change. Give it more air to suck.

    They sell cheap digital cooking thermometers. You can also use them for setting hot water temperatures on shower valves. They take a very small hole. Drill a home in the supply and measure the outlet air temperature. Open the filter door. If it drops appreciably, the system might have COPD and needs help.
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 796
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    Hopefully your not at the smaller nozzle and 100# pressure. Pump pressure should be 130# on all burners minimum. The nozzle size should be based on the boiler rating. I have never found a Beckett burner that ran as good on a "W" nozzle as they do on a "B". Just had a customer with a Buderus boiler and Beckett burner that he couldn't get the CO below 1000ppm no matter what. Smoke was #2 and O2 was 9%. The burner called for a 45 degree "W" nozzle. It now has an 80 degree "B". Final numbers O2 = 4.3% CO = 60ppm, Smoke = #0, Flue T = 450 degrees.

    The with flame retention burners the size of the combustion chamber doesn't matter because the flame is short. The key to the angle is how far is the nozzle from the hole in the diffuser. If it is fix on the drawer assembly and you can put a business card through the center hole and touch the nozzle head, the minimum angle is 70 degrees but 80 degrees is better.

    Best choice here would be 140# pump pressure with a 60 GPH, 80 degree, "B" nozzle. Drawer assembly should be adjusted so the diffuser is flush with the end cone of the air tube.

    Smoke and CO tests need to be taken. O2 and Flue T are important too!
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    captainco said:

    Hopefully your not at the smaller nozzle and 100# pressure. Pump pressure should be 130# on all burners minimum. The nozzle size should be based on the boiler rating. I have never found a Beckett burner that ran as good on a "W" nozzle as they do on a "B". Just had a customer with a Buderus boiler and Beckett burner that he couldn't get the CO below 1000ppm no matter what. Smoke was #2 and O2 was 9%. The burner called for a 45 degree "W" nozzle. It now has an 80 degree "B". Final numbers O2 = 4.3% CO = 60ppm, Smoke = #0, Flue T = 450 degrees.

    The with flame retention burners the size of the combustion chamber doesn't matter because the flame is short. The key to the angle is how far is the nozzle from the hole in the diffuser. If it is fix on the drawer assembly and you can put a business card through the center hole and touch the nozzle head, the minimum angle is 70 degrees but 80 degrees is better.

    Best choice here would be 140# pump pressure with a 60 GPH, 80 degree, "B" nozzle. Drawer assembly should be adjusted so the diffuser is flush with the end cone of the air tube.

    Smoke and CO tests need to be taken. O2 and Flue T are important too!

    You know what you are doing.

    At least someone tried the spec'ed nozzle. When and if that one doesn't work, time for the skill sets to come out. There's no substitute for experience. How do you explain to some HO or a rookie that 100# at the pump isn't going to solve their problem when they haven't a clue how the whole system works.

    Or a "Pro" without an analyzer.

  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 796
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    I am sure most don't know that all oil nozzles are tested using oil the is heated to 100 degrees. Factories probably have nice warm and clean oil right in their lab and a bank of oil filter out the wazoo. Oil should be the best thing to work on in the field because you are able and allowed to make adjustments. Most don't know how to check the 3 draft readings initially and interpret them. There is a 4th draft reading that needs to be checked when the equipment turns off.

    In this case the right nozzle and pump pressure were used. But when I see a nozzle listed with 100# pump pressure I see a poor recommendation.

    I still can't figure out how an oil burner with only one air pattern can be recommended with nozzles with different patterns.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    Where could I get a reasonably priced smoke test kit? And I would also need a draft meter that I could check over fire. Like I said, I don't get many calls for oil, but if I do, I would like to do a better job next time. It has been extremely cold here, so my main concern with that furnace was basic maintenance, and making sure it was running safe, which my meter proved it was. I didn't think there was much I could do as far as improving the efficiency with a 10x3 return.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    If you have a digital analyzer, someone might have an old Bacharach oil wet kit they might like to sell. You get everything you need. Smoke testers are bomb proof. The MZF draft tester is what you are after and if it is bad, you can send it to Bacharach and they will sell you a reconditioned one, cheap. You also get a stack thermometer. You get the wet CO2 tester but you won't be needing that. Unless you want to squeeze the bulb 18 times.

    Bacharach sells them all. You all find deals all over the planet. Whenever I found "deals", they weren't always deals.

    Bacharach sells a pocket draft gauge. Avoid it IMO. I had one that I would give you but you have to hold it perfectly level to have it read properly.
  • drhvac
    drhvac Member Posts: 190
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    Where can I find all of these deals? And what is the mzf draft tester? Also, if I was to stock some oil parts, what would you recommend? Are most transformers the same? Thx
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
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    Someone might have a old oil wet kit they want to sell.

    Here is a link to Bacharach. Like I said before, as far as the MZF draft tester, if you have a broken one, they will exchange it for a re-built one.

    Nozzles are a bear. So many different brands, types and sprays. You won't find any Torridheat burners around. You can just stock normal nozzles you see for common burners. You can always use my controversial trick of changing nozzle strainers on existing nozzles until you get the correct new one.

    Stay sharp on your gas. Its the same thing.

    http://www.bacharach-inc.com/combustion-analyzers.htm