the honeywell shuffle: need pilot gas valve help . . .

archibald tuttle

so i finally found some 24V solenoid gas valves in the general size the makes them pilot gas valves,

e.g. V8046C xxxx say C1014 is the 1/4" valve although C1038 is not the 3/8" rather it is is C1030 -- go figure and C1006 is the 1/8" (4046C are the 120V models).

but they all deliver between 20,000 and 65,000 btus per hour (depending on the body size). even the lowest delivery seems off the scale excessive for single standard pilot. but there is no talk anywhere of regulating or throttling them. quite a few of the GCVs with built in pilot have regulators for the pilot so you can tune the flame. I'm surprised I cannot find a honeywell valve in these small sizes that has integral regulation. but their number system is such greek it may exist and i just haven't surfaced it.

stove pilots often had little valves you operated with a screw driver which weren't really regulators but kind of worked as regulators assuming your supply pressure was consistent. and of course separate small regulators are available. it just strikes me as odd that i can't find a small solenoid pilot valve with a built in regulator.

so i called honeywell and after getting bumped through 2 sources to the combustion techs i then came to a line where i need a PIN and if you didn't have one you are supposed to take it up with your distributor. I knew this was essentially a waste of time but i tried the two biggest honeywell distributors and they looked at me like i was crosseyed -- which maybe i am. But if you sell a lot of residential gas valves you just don't know about what is available for more one off commercial applications.

and none of them offered or would take the hint that maybe they could call honeywell to figure it out for me, although being ecumenical they recommended each other as alternative sources of info.

so i've got a call in BASO (who currently has the johnson controls intermittent ignition tech that i'm using to run the valve anyway, but their commercial gas division is out of boston and closed today (if not for the week) so thought i'd seek anyone who might have a savvy honeywell wholesaler i could call.

thanx,

brian

Abracadabra

WeilMclain includes V8046C with their LGB boilers for pilot valves. What's the concern with using a V8046C? The pilot orfice will limit the flame.

icesailor

If you didn't know this, the last four numbers of the Honeywell valve denotes the design of a valve and its use and application. A V8046C is a V8046C valve, no matter what. Its the last 4 numbers that determine what it actually is and used for.

If you have a Honeywell "Tradeline" Catalog, it will list every valve they offer and the cross reference of other valves to theirs. You find the valve (v8046C) and look down on all the listed V8046C valves and see what it is used for and like.

The last 4 digits might mean that one is for Nat Gas, and another 4 digits might mean it is for LP. It might also mean that it was made specifically for some manufacturers application.

There may be an online Honeywell Tradeline Catalog.

For example, all R8124 controls are not the same. The last 4 digits explain what they are and do.

Here is a link to a PDF file from Honeywell for the online Tradeline catalog. It won't download. You can buy a CD from Honeywell. If you are going to be doing this stuff, you need the CD.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=honeywell+tradeline+catalog

Any decent/competent supply house should have a Tradeline Catalog. Many counter sales people don't know how to use the catalog.

NYplumber

Unsure if this is of help, however are you looking for an item such as the Maxitrol RV12LT-1/8 regulator?
Between a regulator and proper pilot orifice, that solenoid should work.

Abracadabra

WM EGH use a V8046C-1014 with a maxitrol RV20VL for the pilot.
The LGB series uses no regulator on the pilot.

icesailor

According to Honeywell's website, that valve number no longer exists or is incorrect.

Here is a link that explains the numbering. How you find your way around is up to you.

https://products.ecc.emea.honeywell.com/europe/ecatdata/pg_applgasvalvetypes3.html

archibald tuttle

Abracadabra said:

WeilMclain includes V8046C with their LGB boilers for pilot valves. What's the concern with using a V8046C? The pilot orfice will limit the flame.

Abracadabra said:

WM EGH use a V8046C-1014 with a maxitrol RV20VL for the pilot.
The LGB series uses no regulator on the pilot.

i guess this is the distinction i'm trying to draw.

I'm sure that pilot valves included within the design of main Gas Control Valves come preset (whether adjustable or not) chosen with the application in mind where the pilot burner and orifice to be provided with it, length and size of tubing etc. are known and/or are designed with the btus that the pilot port on the chosen gas valve will emit.

Not that differing pilot applications for residential sized boilers are going to require significantly different flow, but if you are putting out a valve to cover various generic circumstances on your commercial side, it just strikes me as odd that they wouldn't include a regulator in the valve.

most main Gas valves provide regulation even though they are preset for standard expectations and the vast majority of folks will never adjust them. and ditto pilots on many GCVs that have their own pilot regulator.

Given that you describe Weil McClain as using the 8046 with a separate regulator, i guess that is an indication that Honeywell does not make an independent pilot solenoid with a built in regulator since Weil McClain could have speced it.

archibald tuttle

icesailor said:

If you didn't know this, the last four numbers of the Honeywell valve denotes the design of a valve and its use and application. A V8046C is a V8046C valve, no matter what. Its the last 4 numbers that determine what it actually is and used for.

i'm quite sure their numbers both prefix and suffix are meant to denote something about the valve. it just bugs me how difficult it is to back into some of the easier facets that one could identify in a model number.

for instance the suffixes in the 8046 line include, as i mentioned,
1030
1014
1006

and even knowing that amongst other distinctions these numbers denotes 1/8" , 1/4" and 3/8" valve i can't readily pick out what digit or combination of digits is supposed to represent the size. it could be the 3rd or the 4th or the 3rd and 4th taken together but none of them jump out logically to identify the size.

Thanks for the link to the tradeline catalogue although i can't figure out why they don't want you to download it. If it takes a lot of resources they could zip it anbd ftp or just make downloads run slow to conserve bandwidth. The catalogue is certainly better than the sell sheets or product data sheets i found because they did not have the whole line on them.

So I can now see that a 1/4" with the larger body is a 1022 so they are numbering multiple options with the same two digits.

And to complicate matters, the same options in the 120V valves are not numbered the same, e.g. the 1/4" large body is a 1021.

maybe they think this helps prevent mistakes with lots of numbers but it sure limits my ability to use their parts numbers as a predictive pattern.

icesailor

If you sign up with Honeywell as a Professional, you get Log-In privileges and you can go to their web site.

You can also get old copies of the trade line catalogs. Or they will send you the current Tradeline CD. Although I didn't really need them, I always had them.

With your experience and knowledge of controls, trust me. Honeywell doesn't have a plan in place to deny you access to their information base. I never had any problem with Honeywell Tech Support. And I've been into them for some pretty heavy duty information on obsolete equipment. Like Modutrol valve actuators with potentiometer controllers and how to TS them. (If they don't work, don't start futzing with the colored plastic disks. That's not the problem.)

archibald tuttle

this is one of the of the relationships i would have tried to cement at AHR, if it hadn't been for the damn blizzard. good for business but bad for business if ya know what i mean. thanks for puttin' up with my whining and your positive suggestions.

brian

icesailor

No whining here. Just asking for points of view.

Now if you were asking about a good German Reisling Auslese wine, that's another discussion.

archibald tuttle

i'm a little more in Stone Ruination IPA department when it comes to fine 'whines'.

SWEI

icesailor said:

Now if you were asking about a good German Reisling Auslese wine, that's another discussion.

Yum!

icesailor

archibald tuttle said:

i'm a little more in Stone Ruination IPA department when it comes to fine 'whines'.

No Bud Light for this old dog. But no excessively hoppy IPA'a either.

archibald tuttle

hard for me to even say whether ruination is excessively hoppy. its not like hop devil or dogfishead 90 minute. It really goes down more like a wine. but maybe i'm so hopped up i don't notice.

icesailor

"Excessively Hoppy" to me is excessively bitter. Like those IPA ales.

Tim McElwain

Honeywell by the way does not give out catalogs any more,

The valve you are looking for does not exist as any regulation of pilot gas has to be done with some kind of Maxitrol pilot regulator placed after the pilot valve.

Pilot gas on all valves is not regulated anyway it is line pressure. The only thing regulated is main burner gas.

archibald tuttle

tim, several people responded along those lines, and i would tend to agree that mostly the pilot setups i've seen are shipped envisioning whatever pressure the valve is delivering but it isn't clear to me, other than by affirmation of someone knowledgable like yourself, that this is 'line pressure'. Some GCVs have had pilot regulators on them. most of us don't mess with them unless the pilot seems low or was getting blown out (in the days of standing pilots).

and when we talk 'line' pressure are we talking 6 or 7 inches I can occasionally measure or whatever the manage to have in the lines or typical regulated delivery to the boiler in the 3.5 to 4" range.

This doesn't matter from any kind of energy standpoint on an intermittent pilot setup, but because the solenoid pilot valves are designed to deliver such a high rate of BTUs and because some setups using these solenoids are delivered with regulators, as cited above, vs. using line pressure i'm trying to learn if it is basically irrelevant on most typical pilot and orifice setups or if i would be wise to throttle back a little bit as even with the restriction of the orifice i could experience some lifting away of the flame or ignition problem from relatively high pressure.

its a $15 add-on so i don't object to the money whatsoever, but want to understand what the typical pilot burner is looking for or how to tell a pilot burner that would benefit from regulation vs. one that would not if there are distinctions.

thanx.

brian