New Independence Gas-Fired Steam Boiler - Not Working! HELP!!

DM2015

Our 30-35 year-old steam boiler cracked and needed replacing. It worked great: we often only needed to turn a radiator on by half a turn, with plenty of heat. A new Independence boiler was installed last week - see photos. It seems to have a declining self-thermostat, shutting itself off at lower and lower house temperatures. The first day, the house could not be warmed above 68 degrees. The second, 65 degrees. Now, 61 degrees. Even with the thermostat control on full, the radiators are only slightly hot, letting off little heat. The installers came and tinkered around with settings, drained it fully, etc., and it heated up temporarily again, but declining max output all over again. They say they are the "most experienced" with steam boilers, but clearly there is a problem they cannot fix. I fear the boiler is just too undersized for our use.

Jamie Hall

Um. Well, what I can make out of the piping is that it is a bit unusual. At least it appears that they used both risers, but the header is too small by at least one and probably 2 pipe sizes. Also, I'm not really keen on having it go around a corner before the steam main hooks up to it...

However, the first question to ask is -- how was the boiler sized? Did anyone add up all the radiation in the house and size the boiler based on that? Or was it based on a heat loss calculation? The latter would have been wrong... it would be unusual to see an undersized steam boiler -- the usual error is in the other direction -- but if it was sized on heat loss, not radiation, it could be.

So on to the next question: when the system is calling for heat -- which I gather is all of the time! -- does the boiler ever shut off on pressure, or does it just keep steaming along? And when you feel along the steam mains and runouts, do they all get hot? What's hot and what's not, in fact!

DM2015

Thanks for feedback! They tell me they sized based on adding up the radiators. The boiler runs relatively quietly, but it definitely seems to be shutting on and off. The two main pipes coming out the top are burning hot, and the exhaust vent is also quite hot.

KC_Jones

If the thermostat is calling for heat and the boiler is shutting off during the call for heat then one of the safeties is shutting it down. It is either going off on pressure or low water. You need to determine what is shutting it down to help diagnose the problem. Did they skim the boiler after install? This takes many hours after install is complete so you should know if they did. If they didn't skim you are probably surging like crazy and shutting off on low water. If it isn't surging then it is most likely pressure which either means inadequate main venting or an over sized boiler or both. The pressuretrol setting looks a bit high to me at 2.5 or so. I agree with Jamie the header really should have been bigger, but I think it is to MINIMUM spec for that boiler (we aren't fans of minimum around here). Did they tell you what the EDR calculation was for your system? If they actually did it I would think it is listed on the contract or the quote...if not ask them what the actual number was. Also do you know what model that is? I can't tell which size IN from the pictures. With the EDR calculation and the model we could tell you if they over sized or not.

Abracadabra

1-skim boiler
2-insulate mains and near boiler pipiing
3- the main takeoff from the header should have been full sized and not reduced.
4 - what's your main vent situation?

what did the installers indicate is causing the boiler to shut down at the end of a cycle? pressure? lwco? temp?

KC_Jones

To the OP what happens with the pipe size a lot of times is anything above 2" starts getting into specialty land with tools and parts. They reduce it like they did because either they don't have the equipment or don't want to deal with the larger pipes, but you end up with a situation like you have. I will reiterate at a minimum that system takeoff should be full size all the way to the header, but really the whole header should be bigger. They will say that isn't the issue because they don't want to change it. If they do change it....it should be on their dime not yours.

STEAM DOCTOR

Clock the gas meter. Make sure you are burning proper amount of gas. This is in addition to all that the other posters stated above.

Abracadabra

Hatterasguy said:

DM2015 said:

The boiler runs relatively quietly, but it definitely seems to be shutting on and off.

By this one statement, we know the boiler is not undersized. It is shutting down on pressure but failing to deliver the dry steam to the radiators.

Hatterasguy, how do we know it's pressure that's shutting it off and not some other control?

KC_Jones

Unless it's surging terribly. I have seen mine surge to the point of hitting low water and shutting down. I was only making 3.5 ounces of pressure at the time too. It's possible and with that piping it could be amplifying the surging and water loss into the system. The velocity in that header and main take off has got to be high. With steam I never rule anything out until it's proven. Let's see what the OP comes back with after all the suggestions.

DM2015

Thank you all for these very helpful comments. The installers have not said anything about what is causing the boiler to shut down at the end of a cycle; I do not think they know. They have not done the skim yet, but plan to do so soon.

It sounds like the first key steps are:
1. Skim boiler asap
2. Change the header to a 3".
3. Insulate mains and near boiler piping.

Then, re-assess - is that correct?

In terms of venting, is that not the large silver pipe coming off the back (photos 5-7, above)? I believe this is the same vent that our prior boiler had.

KC_Jones

That isn't the vent we are talking about. The vents are on the steam mains to let the air out so the steam can flow through the pipes. They should be at the end of the mains. You need to know main length and main size (pipe size) and then you can calculate venting requirements. If your system hasn't had much work over the years it is very common to not have enough venting which can cause short cycling or shutting down on pressure. Your plan of attack looks pretty good. Keep in mind it is very common to have to skim more than once. Don't let them tell you some chemical will take it's place. There really is no substitute for skimming.

DM2015

Thank you all, again - I cannot tell you how useful your responses are.

To KC_Jones: To be certain I respond correctly, you're talking about the clear glass water column, last photo I posted, correct?

I'm not sure what the venting would look like, or how I can tell if it is sufficient. Can you see the vents on any of the photos I posted, and if so point these out so I know where I should be focusing ?

KC_Jones

In the clear glass column (this is called the gauge glass) you will watch that while the boiler is firing to see if it is surging. What you will see once it starts making steam is the water will bounce up and down. This is fine as long as it is around 1/2-3/4" anything much more than that and you need to skim. If it is surging badly enough you will see it bounce AND you will see the level drop lower and lower in that tube. If it does that you need a lot of skimming. This is what has been suggested as a possible issue. If it drops low enough the low water cutoff will turn the burner off until the water level returns to normal. Then if the thermostat is still calling for heat the burner will fire back up again. As far as vents. Follow the large main pipe coming off your boiler until you reach it's end. What you should see is this pipe will end and basically turn 180° and head back to the boiler OR it may drop the floor and head back to the boiler. Either way in this are you will be looking for a tee and a silver (chrome), gold or even green device screwed into the pipe. This device is your main venting. If you only have one vent or no vents you most likely don't have enough and this could be part of the problem. Everything stated to this point are suggestions as to what could be going on. You or the installer need to observe what the system is doing and what you have and post back here and we could help further. Another question that relates to the boiler piping. Do you know how many "mains" you have? I see only one hooked into your header, but does that go up and split anymore? If it does this is also an incorrect piping method. All mains are supposed to come back to the header individually. I can't tell in your pictures exactly what you have. A single main is entirely possible.

DM2015

The excess surging you described is precisely what happens in the gauge glass. Once it started making steam, the water bounces up and down, but quickly (within 10 seconds) it starts surging badly enough that it bounces 3-4" AND the level drops rapidly lower and lower in that tube. Within 20 seconds, the level had dropped to almost the bottom, and the safety shot off the boiler. This seems to be the main issue - excess water surging. Will skimming (perhaps multiple times) solve this, or could it still also be (a) the inappropriately small header and (b) the venting?

Now I will go look at the venting.

KC_Jones

The piping is amplifying the surging for sure. Since your steam velocity is probably a little high that helps suck more water out of the boiler along with the surging. This should have been an easy diagnosis for your installer. Let me rephrase...this should have been a simple, basic, elementary diagnosis for them to make. Surging and skimming are Steam boiler 101 type problems. They are telling you they are "most experienced" with steam...I seriously doubt that given the piping and not diagnosing the surging issue. That is just my opinion. The skimming should get the surging under control, but until you get all the oils out you won't know for sure if it is the only cause (most likely is), but the piping isn't helping much either.

Jamie Hall

The excess surging -- and that is an alarming amount! -- surely isn't helping. Perhaps more to the point, however, is that the water rapidly drops to the level of the shutoff -- which does exactly what it is supposed to do. I am very suspicious -- regrettably -- that the small header plus the small section of pipe rising to the larger original main are picking up water being blown out of the boiler by the surging and carrying it into the rest of the piping. The steam is really flying through those small pipes, and there isn't much hope for the water to separate out and get back to the boiler through the equalizer!

So I'm thinking that yes you may well need to skim and skim some more -- but you also need to fix that near boiler piping.

DM2015

I could only find one small piece that looks like a vent (first photo). We also have a new "fan-in-a-can" (second photo) - not sure if that makes any difference.

If skimming helps the crazy surges, so that the unit does not shut off so quickly, it sounds like I should still insist on:
1. Change the header to 3" and bring the full 2.5" main down into the header. Do not ever get smaller than the size of the main.
2. Adequate venting, if not more than this one vent.

Correct ?

Last question: since skim would at the earliest be done tomorrow (and maybe later), should I turn off the boiler, given its rapid water surges and cycling (it only stays on 10 seconds). If the boiler can tolerate this for another 1-2 days, it does give us a little bit of heat. If it is a major problem, we can turn it off.

DM2015

Thanks, KC and Jamie. Based on this, I will insist on the piping fix. Specifically, it should be "Change the header to 3" and bring the full 2.5" main down into the header. Do not ever get smaller than the size of the main." Anything else ?

Abracadabra

DM2015 said:

Thank you all for these very helpful comments. The installers have not said anything about what is causing the boiler to shut down at the end of a cycle; I do not think they know. They have not done the skim yet, but plan to do so soon.

Sounds like you need new "guys". Shouldn't take more than the time for one cycle to figure out what is causing the boiler to shutdown.

DM2015

Agreed. Fortunately I have only paid the first 50% so far; the inspection is still pending. I have told them that they should skim and revise the piping tomorrow, or I will find someone else to do it and deduct from the remaining amount due. Challenging with the New England snowstorm. Should I turn the boiler off, or can we leave it on to provide a little heat until tomorrow, even with the rapid cycling ?

vaporvac

I don't know what a "fan-in-a-can" is so I can't comment on that, but it looks like you have a Trane vaporvacuum system with your vent on top of the air eliminator. Can you take more pics from further back? I'm now assuming you have a two-pipe system? Do you have traps on the return lines or not? If this is the case this is the cadillac of systems. It sohould heat quietly, efficiently and fully. Don't mess with the venting yet until you get the surging fixed...It heated well with the old boiler so that's not the first thing to look at with a Trane?

These new boiler have to be piped to the manufacturers' minimum specs at the least as their water chest is smaller. The near-boiler piping works as a steam chest so it has to be correct to give you dry steam. Have a skim port installed so that you can do additional skimming yourself. I had to do it multiple times, but it gets better each time. Once is not enough.

DM2015

I've taken a photo a bit further back of the venting, and then another one from the other side. (Note: in the first photo, in the background, you can also see some newer piping/venting from a separate forced water heater; that is not related to this one).

I've also taken new photos from the back of the main piping, one photo atop the other.

DM2015

In terms of main piping changes, can KC, Jamie, or someone else confirm the needed sizes of the 4 marked pipes in the photo below? My understanding is:

#1 is the header, which should be 3" instead of 2". And, is this true for #2 also (the 90 degree angle extension of the header)?

#3 and #4 are the pipes leaving the header, that are currently 2" but should each be 2.5", going into the main.

Are both this terminology and sizing correct?

Gordo

Yes, you have a two-pipe "vapor-vacuum" type steam system. I cannot tell exactly which one (there were scores back in the day)
.
Did your "steam experts" explain how your system should work and where ALL the air needs to vent? I'm guessing not.

ALL of the air in your system needs to vent through that one OUTRAGEOUSLY undersized vent on top of what appears to be a "vent trap" - that bulbous black thing with streaks of rust on it.

Your system was designed to operate on OZ not PSI of pressure.
I"m also going to venture to say that your "steam experts" didn't know that, either. Or did they install a "vaporstat" type of pressure control?

KC_Jones

That main looks like 3" to me, but the OP could measure it easily. If the pipe not the fitting measures 3 1/2" in diameter then it's 3" pipe if it measures 2 7/8" it's actually 2 1/2" pipe. Yes weird, but that is the way pipe is sized. In addition I thin Vaporvac has hit on something. You do appear to have a vapor system by the installed components. You need a true steam expert to look at that. Those systems are special and not just any average contractor should be working on them. First if it is a vapor system that pressuretrol is way too high and should probably be changed to a vaporstat. That system is outside my realm of expertise so hopefully someone else can comment. Where are you located? We may know a much better steam expert in your area...as was stated the person you have clearly isn't or they would have probably been like a kid in a candy store when they saw your system.

Abracadabra

Gordo said:

Yes, you have a two-pipe "vapor-vacuum" type steam system. I cannot tell exactly which one (there were scores back in the day).
Did your "steam experts" explain how your system should work and where ALL the air needs to vent? I'm guessing not.
ALL of the air in your system needs to vent through that one currently undersized vent on top of what appears to be a "vent trap" - that bulbous black thing with streaks of rust on it.
Your system was designed to operate on OZ not PSI of pressure.
I"m also going to venture that your "steam experts" didn't know that, either. Did they install a "vaporstat" type of pressure control?

+1 on what Gordo said. I zoomed in on the one pic with the trap. Looks like there's maybe a vent-rite#35 or some kind of old Dole main vent. You are going to need plenty more venting than that.

Abracadabra

vaporvac said:

I don't know what a "fan-in-a-can" is so I can't comment on that,

Just FYI, fan-in-a-can is a product by Field to provide makeup air for combustion.

JStar

Where in NE are you located? We might know somebody who knows how to work on two-pipe better than most.

KC_Jones

Abracadabra said:

Gordo said:

Yes, you have a two-pipe "vapor-vacuum" type steam system. I cannot tell exactly which one (there were scores back in the day).
Did your "steam experts" explain how your system should work and where ALL the air needs to vent? I'm guessing not.
ALL of the air in your system needs to vent through that one currently undersized vent on top of what appears to be a "vent trap" - that bulbous black thing with streaks of rust on it.
Your system was designed to operate on OZ not PSI of pressure.
I"m also going to venture that your "steam experts" didn't know that, either. Did they install a "vaporstat" type of pressure control?

+1 on what Gordo said. I zoomed in on the one pic with the trap. Looks like there's maybe a vent-rite#35 or some kind of old Dole main vent. You are going to need plenty more venting than that.

And has been said this is something any decent steam expert would have known and talked to you about. Did they even discuss overall system operation and performance with you? Is the system working silently, efficiently and evenly? Did they ask any of this? They should have. All these should be clues as to how good of a contractor you have. Not having paid them in full is a good thing!

icesailor

That square green thing above the boiler, next to the round vent with the gauge glass on the side. (when I first saw it from the back, I thought it was a indirect HW coil).

Is there any water level in it? Is there any water in the glass when the boiler is running?

Turning a system over to someone like those is like handing the keys to your brand new Mercedes SUV diesel to that old guy down the dirt road, off in the woods with the 2 car garage with no working doors, junk cars in the yard, and having him service the injectors.

Some people just don't know their limitations or when to call the Pro's.

DM2015

Whew, great information. I will try to summarize:

1. Measured on the outside, all the new piping is 2 3/8", including the risers, the header, and new first part of the main. (Is this officially called 2" pipe? If yes, perhaps official measurements refer to the inside lumen diameter). The old main, measured on the outside, is 3.5" (it sounds like this would be officially called 3" pipe). So, instead of the current configuration, the 2" risers should be going into a 3" header, and then this should go into a new 3" main into the older 3" main. Right?

We have a Burham Independence IN7. Looking right at the install specs, it shows that 2" risers should go into a 3" header and 3" main (all minimum).

2. New information: we have a two-pipe "vapor-vacuum" type steam system. It should operate on OZ not PSI of pressure. The pressuretrol is way too high and should be changed to a vaporstat. Also, it will need plenty of more venting, like the current vent-rite#35 or some kind of old Dole main vent. All correct?

3. We need a new, real steam expert on-site, someone who can come work on an old two-pipe "vapor-vacuum" type steam system. We are in Newton, near Boston. Suggestions?

4. What is the additional greenish square unit? Below is a close-up photo of this square green unit above the boiler, that is up high next to the round vent. The gauge glass on the side of this unit is totally empty, and does not fill when the boiler is running. The installer did not seem to know what this unit was for. What is it? Should it have water in it?

vaporvac

And can't even read the instruction manual, to boot.

JStar

That large green device is a Direct Return Trap. What is the name on it?

Jamie Hall

Newton,eh... well, he's a busy busy man, but you could do far worse than to try and get Charles Garrity to come and take a look. 413.841.6726. He really does know these systems!

There may also be someone closer...

KC_Jones

DM2015 said:

Whew, great information. I will try to summarize:

We have a Burham Independence IN7. Looking right at the install specs, it shows that 2" risers should go into a 3" header and 3" main (all minimum).

You are already better than your installer as you opened the manual which clearly they didn't do. Have you ever looked into calculating the EDR of your system? If I was you I would do that ASAP. If they over sized the boiler you want that addressed that now especially if they massively over sized it. This is also a good learning experience for you. Once you are stuck with an over sized boiler you will be stuck with it for a long time. Here is a link to another post with some sizing charts.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1367104/#Comment_1367104

DM2015

The boiler return trap is by Hoffman Specialty Co. It seems to be empty/non-functioning. What should the installers have done?

icesailor

I think that the green square thingy (that they didn't know what it was) has something to do with the vacuum in the system.

If you have an E-Mail address for them, they might like the address to this web side and the steam information available here.

Learning new things is a wonderful thing.

For some, its better than drugs.

Knowledge is like money. You never have enough.

DM2015

I did the calculations. We have 11 radiators, total EDR=388. (Another bathroom radiator has never worked, it would another 9, or EDR=397). How is the IN7 for that?

vaporvac

Regarding your venting, you have to make sure you have a vacuum-vent on your air-eliminator, but with such an oversized boiler that is the least of your concerns. The extra capacity is exacerbating everything wrong with this install and costing you a lot to run, to boot. Good for you for opening up the manual. It's exciting to learn this stuff. I learn something new on this site with every thread and almost every post!
Charles Garrity had great insight into my system and helped me via this site design my current set-up for my own vaporvacuum system. It looks like you have a Hoffman system, btw, not a Trane. Do a search on this site and you'll find a lot of good info on them. @Jamie Hall is our resident expert.

DM2015

With EDR=388 (or EDR=397 if I fix the one radiator that is not working), is it better to be a bit under (IN5: EDR=358), or over (IN6: EDR =450). Each of these is just about 10% under/over.

KC_Jones

I will add my vote that the boiler is to big and needs to be changed. You will literally pay for this for the life of the boiler in fuel costs and less comfort. Bigger is not better with steam boilers. This is especially true on those vapor systems which are very pressure sensitive. It is good you haven't paid them yet. Honestly I wouldn't let them do any more work at all until you get everything squared away. The whole boiler is wrong at this point...are they going to change the whole thing out? I personally wouldn't take no on that one. This is really a tough situation for you. We are all here to help in any way we can.