Best way to fix this

heck23

I am a new home owner looking to make the steam system in my new house work the best it can. I have read The Lost Art of Steam Heat through a couple times and noted several problem areas. My system is a one pipe parallel flow system with one 2 inch main surrounding the basement. There is 251 sq ft EDR of radiators (calculated by help I recieved from my previous post on The Wall & charts in LAOSH) connected to a Weil Mc Clain SGO-4 oil fired boiler. I know the near boiler piping needs fixed, however I am seeking guidance on how to go about that. The header looks nothing like anything I have seen either here on The Wall or in the boiler install manual. The picture of the piping that could be called a header shows the connection to the main, what I guess is an attempt at a counter flow feed to two radiators in separate floors and a takeoff to a single radiator in the kitchen. The main is 2 in iron pipe about 40 ft long surrounding the basement. Attached also are pictures of the return piping and Hartford loop. The equalizer is in 2 in pipe.

Abracadabra

What's the question? Page 23/24 of the manual lays out the requirements for the near boiler piping. How does the kitchen radiator connect to the main? The pics don't show that well.

Fred

Needs a Header, appears to be two mains tied together by a Bull head Tee. Those mains need to tie individually into a Header. Equalizer needs to come off of the end of a Header. Hartford loop looks high but I can't really tell to well. It should be a couple inches below the Normal water line. That kitchen radiator run needs to tie into the Main. Not sure where it ties in now. As Abracadabra said, look at the manual or get a copy if you don't have one.

KC_Jones

If you are wondering if there is some easy way to work with what you have the answer is no. Basically you are going to need to rip everything out up to and including the tee at the top. On the return side you may be able to use the returns and the Hartford loop (as Fred said check the height) if you can figure out a way to tie back into it with a new header. It's going to be a job, if it was me I would wait for warmer weather to tackle this one...just deal with what you have until then.

heck23

Ok. Im not looking for a quick fix I want it to be right. I am trying to make a plan for repiping the near boiler pipes when it gets warm out. This is definitely not something I want to attempt in the middle of February!

The kitchen radiator comes off before the bullheaded mains T. I'll try to get a better pic tomorrow morning.

I dug up the boiler manual and noted the recemmended pipe sizes and layout of the near boiler piping. The height of the riser from boiler to header should be greater than 24in from normal water line & higher is better, correct? Would you all recommend planning and installing a dropped header?

I will also check the height of the Hartford loop when I get home in the morning.

Fred

Yes, the higher the header the better. If you can do a drop header, that's even better.
I think I see the Tee that the kitchen rad is tied to. That radiator feed should tie into one of those two Mains (that are tee'd together) .
EDIT: BTW, it looks like the tapping for the riser out of the boiler has been reduced. When you have the header installed, have them put a full size riser in that boiler tapping. That will reduce the velocity of the steam coming out of the boiler and help keep it dry.
Also, I noticed that someone marked "Min" on the boiler next to the guage glass. That is way to low to allow the water level to drop. If the water in the gauge glass is dropping that much, when the boiler is running, the boiler probably needs a good skimming to get the oils off of the surface of the water. typically the water level shouldn't bouce more than 1/2 to 3/4 inch and shouldn't drop more than a couple inches, total, before the condensate returns to the boiler. Judging from the looks of the water in the sight glass, a skim is probably in order and certainly will be required after the header and other piping changes are made.

Dave0176

That boiler at Weil McLains rated firing rate puts out 405 sq ft steam, your connected load is 251 Sq Ft. You can down Fire it somewhat but it unfortunately is oversized but quite a large margin, compounding the problems.

heck23

Yes it is reduced 2 1/2 to 2 in. That will be corrected with the repipe.

I plan to skim the boiler on the next mild day I have off. There is no evidence that the skim port was ever touched, so I would like to do that asap. The waterline does surge some - probably from 5/8 to 1 in and the water is dirty. The low water cut off will shut it down far before the "min" mark.
This brings up another problem I have been having: I am loosing water somewhere as I need to top it off every two to three weeks. I could not find any leaks by filling the boiler up all the way and don't see a white cloud comming from my chimney.

heck23

I am not sure if it is already downfired as I almost never have any pressure shown on the guage (I recently added a 0 - 3 psi guage to the pigtail).

nicholas bonham-carter

With that much overcapacity in the boiler, you should see high pressure, and short-cycling.
When you over-filled the boiler, did you let it sit for a few hours? The hole you are looking for could be the size of a pin.--NBC

icesailor

The oil burner part and connection is pathetic and indicative of the rest of it. I hope that that isn't installed in Massachusetts.

heck23

I let it sit for 1 hour. I will repeat and let it sit for longer.

I measured the Hartford loop - it is high - about 2in above the water line. I have attached a better picture of the return piping and the takeoff for the kitchen radiator.

For my own education, what all is wrong with the oil burner and connection? It is in Pennsylvania. Does Mass. have a strict code?

icesailor

When it comes to oil burners they do. That hack oil line is another thing to give oil a bad name. In Massachusetts, it has to be "protected" from damage. And it can no longer be "protected" by pushing the oil line against a wall and smoothing a bag of Sakrette against it. Where the lime in the cement can degrade the copper and cause a potential leak.

Or drop something hard on it and crush it.

Fred

The return looks OK. it drops below the water line. Have the kitchen radiator run moved to the Main when you have the Header installed as you don't wat return water running back into the new Header and you want a more balanced distribution of steam. Make sure they move the Hartford loop down so that it is 2" below the water line.
When you say you have to top the water off every 2 or 3 weeks, how much water do you have to add? As cold as it has been, if it is minimal, there could be a little evaporation but not much.
If there is a leak and you can go 2 or 3 weeks before adding water (assumming it is a small quantity), there may be a joint or fitting with a small leak and it just steams away and hasn't been noticable. Could also be a vent (radiator or Main) that isn't completely closing.

heck23

The boiler shuts down for Low water. I then have to raise the water level in the guage glass about 1/2-3/4 in to satisfy the low water cut off, then another inch or so to reach the line stamped in the boiler jacket "water fill line". I do not know how to tell how much that is in gallons.

[EDIT] I remember noticing one radiator valve with a towel wrapped around it. I didn't think much of it at the time maybe I have one or 2 of them leaking. I will have to check them all.

Fred

[EDIT] I remember noticing one radiator valve with a towel wrapped around it. I didn't think much of it at the time maybe I have one or 2 of them leaking. I will have to check them all.
During the heating season when the boiler is running every hour or so, leaking valves and vents can cause a good amount of water loss.

heck23

Found two leaks at radiator inlet valves. I have attached pics. One is leaking at the stem the other is leaking where it connects to the runout pipe. I found 1 -2 others that were leaking at one time (rust running down sides of inlet valve) but I could not see a leak now. I found one radiator vent not tight, and fixed it. The kitchen radiator vent had water droplets sitting on top of it.

How tight can one safely go with a radiator vent without damaging the radiator or threads?

KC_Jones

For vents I never use any tools strictly hand tight with a tiny bit of PTFE tape or pipe dope. Just make sure none of it gets into the vent. Everyone's hand tight is different, but generally it doesn't take much to get them so seal up. I let my 7 year old put one on and it doesn't leak if that gives you some idea. Also depends on system pressure I am running less than 1/2 ounce right now.

Fred

Usually you can tighten the valve stem nut to stop leaks around the valve stem. Most plumbing supply houses carry the packing kit for them if they get to a point where you can't stop a leak.

heck23

Thanks KC. that sounds good. My system rarely builds any pressure now as is. Occasionally, it will trip the pressuretrol near 2 psi on a long run such as a 2-3 degree rise in temp on a cold morning.

Fred thanks, I'll try tightening the valve stem nut right now. Now I just have to figure out the best way to get to the other leaky joint! It's right at floor level and over a tiny crawl space.

I attached a couple of rough hand sketches of the near boiler piping and the second short main. I can go about 30 in high with the riser from the boiler. Feedback will be appreciated.

Fred

If the boiler has two tappings, use both of them and carry two boiler risers up to the header. Not sure if that's what you have in your drawing. Also, if you can make the Header 3" that would be much better.

icesailor

FWIW, I once read an article (Might have been by our man Dan) on how much wasted energy there is lost by something leaking water on a steam system. How much energy was lost just heating and throwing away just one cup of steam condensate. "A pint is a pound, the world around". Two cups is a pint. If you heat water from 50 degrees to 212 degrees,, the water weighs one pound. It takes 162+ BTU's to heat the water to boil into steam. Btu's that are wasted because they don't go back to the boiler.

Fix the packings. Its easy. Before you try to loosen them up, spray them with something first, then loosen them up. Pack them with black valve stem packing. Wound up Teflon Tape also works well. Grease the threads liberally. Don't over tighten. Once you carefully do one, you'll be an expert. Then, the fun begins.

I always raised the valve stem as high as it would go and then cleaned the crud off the stem so it was shiny brass. Then, I greased it up. Then, raised the nut up as high as it will go. Then, cleaned below the nut. Then, greased it up and put in the packing. Lower the nut. Tighten carefully. Put in more packing as needed. It comes apart like yarn.

heck23

Fred: The boiler only has one 2 -1/2in tapping, unfortunately. I can use 3 in pipe for the header itself. Is there a minimum height for the dropped header above waterline if the riser to header is already over 24 in above waterline?

Icesailor: thank you for the clear discription on repacking the valve stems. I have some packing and will try that tonight or tomorrow. It is amazing when you look at it how much can be wasted through little leaks.

Any problems with the drawing of the second short main?

Fred

The riser from the boiler needs to be a minimum of 24" from the water line. Higher is better if you can, then elbow over and drop down as low as you'd like maybe 5 or 6" above the top of the boiler, whatever works best but I'd stay baove the boiler top.

As far as that second Main, it only has 2 radiator runs on it. If it were mine, I'd change the pitch of the Main so that it pitches, downhill, away from the boiler riser, put the return on the end of that main, (with the vent on top) and drop the return down and carry it to the wet return. It might be OK the way you have it configured but I don't like the drip leg so close to the riser from the boiler. Let's see if others have an opinion.

heck23

I took a look at that short main again and took some pictures. The size is smaller than I initially thought. More like 1-1/2in. It in a crawl space where I could not drop right below the waterline at the end. I would have to run a dry return then drop below the water line when it comes out of the crawl space.
It looks like they bullheaded a runout on the beginning end of the big main. I think this section would work better if it were treated as a section of main rather than a runout from the main. Does 1-1/2in pipe sound too small to serve two radiators? Regardless it seems that it will need some rework.

Fred

That run actually looks OK. I don't think I's change that. The drip leg on the end of it is OK as long as it is open and aloowing condensate to return. I don't see a Bull Headed Tee on there.
How large are the two radiators (Total EDR) on that 1-1/2 pipe ? Depending on the size of the rads, 1-1/2 may be OK.

heck23

Less than 90 EDR total. I need to verify the slope of the run. The bullhead is at the beginning of that run. I zoomed in on a picture of where that run originates.
I'll make sure it is open when the near boiler piping is fixed.

(EDIT) The big main surrounding the basement goes to the left, and the runout to the two radiators to the right.

Fred

Yea, that bullhead is not the best situation but if it povides enough steam for those 2 radiators, it may not be worth trying to change. If you are taking that riser to that Bull apart, then I'd change it and either tie it into the header (best option) or make it a branch off of the bigger main. I have one similar to that that is a branch off of one of my Mains and it works fine. 1-1/2" pipe should be able to support 90 EDR, especially since the return condensate is routed through that 1" drip leg.

heck23

That sounds good. With that in mind, I posted a simple drawing showing the header and two takeoffs. One to the bigger main, and one to the two radiators. The drip leg will come back dry until it comes out of the crawl space, then drop to the wet return. I would put a main vent on the drip leg the recommended 15in back from the end.

Fred

That should work. I assume your Boiler riser is on the left side of the header, right?

stanzygo

oh come on that oil line isnt bad! he even used a tubing bender. he put thought into it

heck23

Yes, the boiler riser is on the left. Just have to verify the pitch on the run. I need to figure out where to tie in the kitchen radiator next. Should work out fine after the drop header is done.

icesailor

stanzygo said:

oh come on that oil line isnt bad! he even used a tubing bender. he put thought into it

That makes it even worse.

It wasn't done in Massachusetts. Or else not inspected. No Firomatic safety valve at the pump/burner. Most installers try to pitch the oil line to the pump where you can bleed the air out. That's why it is nice to put oil filters at the pump.

Not that installer.

heck23

Ok, so do you have a picture of link and description of how the burner should be piped? I'm curious. What counts as "protection from damage" for the copper tube? I'm sure the installer could have done much better - if you open the door, the tubing drags across the concrete floor...

heck23

Also I checked out the pipes in the crawl space and they looked like the drawing I attached. With the drip where it is, I don't think the condensate will be able to drain easily from the radiators. I think the pipe is pitched down away from the boiler. Hard to tell without a level and squeezed in the tiny crawl space.

Fred

If that drip leg is at the very end of that run, it will work fine. If it is actually back where your drawing shows it, it is a problem. It needs to be at the end, at the lowest point on that run, in the bottom of that elbow or replace that elbow with a Tee.

heck23

Unfortunately, it is piped that way. I can correct that this summer.
I skimmed the boiler yesterday for a couple of hours & will again when I can. The water is much cleaner. I found & fixed 2 more radiator valves. There is one leak left that I know of - it's the threads on the radiator valve union. Gonna try thread sealant on the threads.

icesailor

heck23 said:

Ok, so do you have a picture of link and description of how the burner should be piped? I'm curious. What counts as "protection from damage" for the copper tube? I'm sure the installer could have done much better - if you open the door, the tubing drags across the concrete floor...

That's why it needs to be "protected". So people aren't walking on it and breaking it.

Does that even LOOK professional?

I have a difficult remembering numbers. Oil burners are covered under a NFPA code. It has stupid requirements like the service switch MUST be in arms reach when viewing the flame. So you can shut it off as soon as you see something wrong. Not on the ceiling where you have to stand up and turn it off.

Stupid common sense things like that.