3/4 plug - main vent - two story, brick house

tsamarella

Thank you for any help in advance.

I own a two story house in Queens, NY; heated by steam/gas, Weil McLain EG/PEG 40 or 45 (was not able to determine exact model)

5 radiators on the first floor - two are cast iron and the other three with fins.
5 radiators on the second floor - two are cast iron.
All have the Green-top Varivalve Quick Vent and all are fully open.
All are pitched and all their valves are fully open.
I replaced all the valves with new ones.

When I purchased the house, I replaced four of the fin-like radiators with cast iron ones, as I thought cast iron radiators would "hold" heat much longer than the fins. Not sure if I did the right thing, but it is done!

It is a one pipe system and the main runs through the garage - 20 feet - and then through a basement studio 16 feet. All insulated -1 inch thickness.

Gray-Honeywell Pressuretrol is set at .5 and 1.5 after lots of intriguing reading on this forum. The boiler turns on and off until living room reaches the temperature set by the thermostat. First floor always warmer than second floor, even though steam reaches all of radiators pretty much the same time. (again, thanks to all the info I gathered from this site.) Brick houses in Queens/Brooklyn are notorious with their much colder second floors due to old, un-insulated ceilings and walls.

Please see two pictures.
1. There is a plug - (3/4 inch, I think) at end of main in the basement studio. (I left that part un-insulated until the proper resolution to the main vent/plugged hole issue).
2. There is only one main vent at the end of the return

Questions:
1. Do you recommend to remove the main plug and install a vent? If yes, could you please make a suggestion which one is the most preferable? Also, do they sell 3/4 inch angled vents, as the hole is on the side of the main and not on top? (I've read different articles/suggestions on vents, but I would appreciate suggestions based on the information I gave).

2. As a result of following the constant suggestion to insulate the mains, the basement-studio has now much less heat, which is to be expected. There is no separate heat source for the basement studio, and I was using the main pipe to heat it up. Do you agree that the main has to be insulated in a finished basement studio, or it would not make much of a difference in the overall system's performance/fuel savings/hammering,etc?

3. There is hammering only on the first floor's biggest radiator - 5 feet long with fins - which runs the closest, above the plugged main. Do you think it needs two vents? It is pitched towards the steam/return pipe. The hammering lasts approximately 20 seconds, or until steam reaches the radiator. Maybe a main vent would solve the issue, but I have no idea without trying, of course.

4. There is spitting moisture on the cast iron radiator in the kitchen - first floor. I am not sure how to eliminate that. It lasts 20-30 seconds.

5. As the difference between 1.5 and .5 is not that much, the boiler turns on and off maybe 2-4 times until the thermostat is satisfied. So from 66F to reach 67F it would cycle usually 3 times. It would fire up after one or two minutes from producing the first round of steam. Is that normal? I am not sure from what I have read if that is considered short-cycling or not. Water in glass tube is very clean, and all the pipes -black pipe, etc. are insulated (except the ones running in the ceiling/floors). I am not sure if there are any significant savings for not having the Pressuretrol set to .5 and 2 or even 2.5, which would make the boiler take an extra minute or two to cycle on.

Thank you for any suggestions you might have and appreciate you are taking the time to read this.

Gus

KC_Jones

The reason it is hotter downstairs than it is upstairs is most likely because you have the same vent open full on all the radiators. If you want it even you need faster venting on the second floor, or in your case slow down the first floor. Remember the upstairs radiators have to vent all that extra pipe before they get steam. I take it by your description you only have 1 main? If that is true and that tee you are showing is at the end of the main then that would be an ideal location for a main vent. That being said it doesn't look like you have room for a vent in that location unless you poke a hole in the ceiling which I will assume you don't want to do. So what would probably be your best option is to add venting where that existing vent is. With 36' of main plus whatever return piping I would suggest you go with at least 1 Gorton #2 vent, but 2 would be even better (you will probably get a lot of opinions on this). The hammering could be a pitch issue in the feed to that rad or too big of a vent and the steam moving into the radiator too quickly. Spitting can be caused by several things. You could be venting too quickly, you could be getting wet steam. Could you post a couple pictures of your boiler piping? This will go a long way to how your system is operating. As far as the pressure and cycling, keep this in mind. The pressuretrol is really a safety device to keep the boiler pressure down. To actually reduce the pressure and prevent the short cycling you are experiencing requires more venting. If you vent properly AND your boiler isn't oversized you should cycle on pressure except for maybe on a recovery from setback. Like I said earlier more main venting. Also do you know the connected EDR of your system? This would be good to know so you can determine if the boiler is the proper size. This helps so you can know what is a realistic expectation.

tsamarella

I really appreciate your quick reply.
1. I will try experimenting with the Varivalves on first floor. But I read that you leave open the vents for larger radiators and reduce the small ones regardless of what floor they are. It is a very conflicting information.
2. Please see picture of the boiler piping. There is one main vent but in the garage it splits to another "main" which crosses the width of the garage inside ceiling (10 feet or so) to provide heat to two radiators on the side of the house the kitchen (the one that spits) and living room. Also from the beginning of the main above boiler there is a split to narrower piping (see pictures) and provides steam to a small bathroom above. I have a feeling that same one continues to provide heat on second floor on that side of the house.
3. The distance between the plug at end of main and celling is 4 inches. Would that be enough clearance for a vent after removing the plug? If a vent fits like the Gorton #2 do I just get an angled 3/4 inch male female nipple?
4. So, if I do not add a vent where the plug is, do you recommend to replace the existing vent on the return I showed in the pic? I am sorry I was not sure from your suggestion.
5. I do not know the EDR yet. I have to read further..

Please see attached boiler pics.

Thank you much.

Gus

Fred

In addition to what KC said, above, What kind of thermostat are you using? Is it set for 1 cycle per hour for Steam? If the boiler cycles on and off in a matter of a couple minutes and several times per cycle, I suspect the Thermostat is still set at it's default setting, which is for forced air furnaces. Do add more Main venting probably at the location of the current vent. You have enough head room to use a couple Gorton #2's there, even if you have to put in a shorter stand pipe(that the vent is mounted on).
The hammer at that radiator may well be the pipe that feeds steam to that radiator has lost its pitch. Check it in the basement if you can. If it is not exposed, try to raise the entire radiator about a 1/2" and then repitch it back towards the supply pipe. On the radiator vent that spits, use a slower vent or, if that one is adjustable, adjust it down a bit and see if that corrects the problem. Some vents are prone to spitting anyway and trying a different brand may also resolve the issue.
Do not adjust your pressuretrol upward. Steam moves faster at lower pressures and higher pressures just waste energy and cause system problems. Keep the Cut-In at .5PSI and the Differential at 1.
Mains perform best when they are insulated and it might be best to use a small heater in that basement room when needed. You can leave the Main un-insulated in that area if need be but it will affect the steam delivery a little bit. Maybe try taking just half of it off, after you add the additional venting and see how it performs.

tsamarella

Thank you so much for your suggestions. I am really grateful. I have never thought of the thermostat being the culprit for short-cycling. Please see picture. It is a Hunter 44550. It "clicks" and turns on boiler when it needs heat and "clicks" again when it reaches the desired temp and turns the boiler off.

If the suggestion is to add two Gortons #2 where the existing vent is, then I shall do that. Should I try with one first?

Thank you again.

Fred

With the length of your Main, you really need to add two Gorton #2's.
If you have the owner's manual for that thermostat, it should tell you how to get to the program to set it for the tpye of system you have (Steam). Set it for CPH.
EDIT: BTW, getting it to 1CPH will allow the boiler to runn long enough to help get steam up to those second floor radiators as well.

KC_Jones

I just looked at the manual for that thermostat and it doesn't look like it has a way to control or set the CPH. It actually seems pretty generic so hard to say how it works.

tsamarella

Thank you. I appreciate your suggestions. I checked the thermostat and regardless with the 1CPH I do not think there is anything wrong. The short cycling, if indeed it is short-cycling, is totally dependent of the Pressuretrol. The boiler will stop going on/off once the thermostat reaches the desired temp. Which usually happens within 10-20 minutes. If the desired temp is not reached, then the boiler will continue going on/off dependent from the Pressuretrol. This thermostat has a minimum 3.5 minutes protection and it will not send an on/off to the boiler. The boiler cycles within two minutes as per Pressuretrol setup. I better/faster vending will help. I will update.
Thank you.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

I just looked at the manual for that thermostat and it doesn't look like it has a way to control or set the CPH. It actually seems pretty generic so hard to say how it works.

That's unfortunate. Maybe she can call their support Hotline (if they have one) and see if they have a "work Around". Cycling for a forced air furnace just won't work effectively for steam.

Jamie Hall

I suspect that given all the above comments... first, recovering two degrees unless the boiler is astonishingly close to the installed load, I would expect it to cycle on pressure towards the end of a run, which seems like what is being described. Probably not a problem. Adding more main venting may help -- but it may well not.

The hammer in that one radiator -- check the pitch of the runout to the radiator. What you are describing sounds as though that particular runout doesn't have quite enough pitch. It may or may not be fixable -- but it's worth checking.

tsamarella

I just checked the manual. I can set it to cycle at 2 degrees. I think that will be plenty and work closer as if it was 1CPH.

Fred

Try the 2 degrees. If that is too much of a swing for comfort, if you have 1 degree, try that too. The default may be around half a degree.

ChicagoCooperator

From what I'm reading you have convectors, which really need 2 cph rather than 1 cph. Also, convectors sometimes make "funny" noises when they heat up since they are lighter and, not quite the right word, but softer, than cast iron radiators.

Also, having a mix of convectors and cast iron creates problems for a variety of reasons.

Fred

"The boiler cycles within two minutes as per Pressuretrol setup."
That pressuretrol setting is not to set minutes, it sets the max pressure where the boiler should shut down and the Minimum pressure .5PSI that the boiler should refire if the thermostat continues to call for heat.

tsamarella

Appreciate the comments and suggestions very much. I totally understand the pressure differential from Pressuretrol and yes, it is not to set minutes. When I look at the gauge when it reaches 1.5 PSI and the boiler turns off, it takes a few minutes from 1.5 PSI to go down to .5 thus it starts again. And this repeats itself until the desired temp is reached and then the thermostat kicks in to end this cycle.
Agree that the little crackling noises the fin type radiators make, is part of the deal.
About the thermostat and CPH. The thermostat calls for heat after at least 45 minutes or more when there is a drop of one degree in the living room. This is on a cold night like tonight in New York, 30F. So, I think I am OK with that.

Fred

Yes, the thermostat sounds like it is working Ok. I think additional Main venting may help some (at least get steam moving towards the radiators before pressure starts to build. I guess the next question to ask is if you know what the total EDR of your radiators and convectors is, and the total sq. ft. rating of your boiler. If the boiler is way over-sized, that may help explain the short cycling on pressure. The boiler may be producing steam much faster than the radiators can condense it, hence the pressure build up.
On a normal cycle, where the boiler is not recovering from a set-back or when the outside temperatures are not near 0, the boiler should not short cycle, unless again, it is well over sized for the total radiation on the system.

EDIT: The Gorton 2's are about 7-1/2" tall and the Gorton 1's are about 4-1/2" tall. Put the gorton 2's where the vent is now, on the return. That plug in the Main is where a radiator run once was and being on the side is not a very good situation for a vent.

ChicagoCooperator

Fred said:

The boiler may be producing steam much faster than the radiators can condense it, hence the pressure build up.

I suspect that the mix of convectors and radiators isn't helping. The convectors contain less steam and condense more rapidly compared to the cast iron radiators.

vaporvac

Do you know what your rad's edr acompared to your boiler's edr capacity yet? That might explain you short-cycling to a degree at least. We can help with that.

tsamarella

Thanks. I will try to calculate edr soon.
The four convectors I've replaced with cast iron radiators were very rusted and very old. It seemed like a good investment at the time. I am not sure if the convectors give off at least the same heat than the cast irons. It seems that the cast iron radiators stay warmer longer.
I had a few minutes to test the short cycling. It happens every 2 minutes and 10 seconds, both ways. Meaning, it takes 2:10 from 1.5 psi to go down to .5 and it takes 2:10 when it fires up to get from .5 to 1.5. This excludes the first time it fires up for ex. in the morning. This would occur 3, 4 or 5 times back to back until the thermostat is satisfied. Pressuretrol used to be 1 to 3.5 and it obviously stayed on longer without short cycling, but I get that no more than 1.5 psi is needed. This has been an experiment as per instructions and suggestions from this forum and a few others, as well. I am not sure if it pays to have it come on and off so frequently just to have it on 1differential.
1.Would it be better and spare the life of the boiler if it is on for 8-10 minutes instead of coming on so many times?
2. Does it really effect the life of the boiler this short-cycling?
Yet again, I have not added/replaced the main vent with the 2 Gortons that was suggested.
It does seem that the boiler is producing too much steam too quickly for 10 radiators in a two family house 1400 sqf..
It is an adventure!
FYI: I closed 3/4 of Varivalves from 2 radiators closer to the boiler on first floor, cast iron ones, and hammering is really not noticeable now on the other side of the house's first floor from the largest radiator. Go figure!

Fred

The short cycling isn't hurting the boiler. It is just not desirable to have the boiler shut down on pressure rather than the thermostat being the control mechanism. I think when you calculate the radiator EDR you will find your boiler is over sized. We just don't know by how much at this point.
You don't want to turn the pressure up. Higher pressures have the potential to affect the system far more than short cycling and won't stop the short cycling as it might take longer for the first short cycle but higher pressure will slow the steam movement down and you will end up where you are anyway. putting the additional vents on the mains will, at least allow you to fill the Mains with steam before you start building pressure. The short cycleing is just letting you know the attached radiators can't condense the steam as fast as the boiler produces it.

tsamarella

From everything I've read, I really thought it is desirable to have the boiler shut down on pressure rather than the thermostat being the control mechanism. I thought that is the wise way to safe on fuel.

Fred

tsamarella said:

From everything I've read, I really thought it is desirable to have the boiler shut down on pressure rather than the thermostat being the control mechanism. I thought that is the wise way to safe on fuel.

Oh no. You want the thermostat to be the control device. The Pressuretrol should be viewed as a Safety device to ensure the boiler Pressure does not get out of hand. Ideally, the pressuretrol would never come into play. Unfortunately "Ideal" doesn't happen all that often.

tsamarella

Ok, I think I totally misspoke. I meant to write that I thought it is desirable for the pressuretrol - given the suggested and very small, one differential, .5 to 1 psi, - to turn on and off the boiler as needed until the thermostat is satisfied, which at that time the thermostat will end that cycle.

KC_Jones

I think sometimes people get confused by running at low pressure and setting the pressuretrol to a low pressure. If you have a properly sized boiler and good venting you can run at low pressure and never hit the pressurtrol setting. If you don't have a well matched system and the venting isn't the best you will hit the pressuretrol. No matter what you want that pressuretrol set low so the pressure can't get high no matter what. The pressurtrol being set low and that is what is keeping your pressure down isn't really running at a low pressure, it's shutting the boiler down so you don't get pressure. Pressure for the most part is the enemy for good even and fast heating that is why you don't want it going up. Yes you want the pressuretrol set low, but at the same time you really don't ever want to hit it's setting. I have a vaporstat set to 8 ounces, but I don't even make 1 ounce of pressure...even on a 4 degree recovery. As always just my $.02 worth.

Fred

tsamarella said:

Ok, I think I totally misspoke. I meant to write that I thought it is desirable for the pressuretrol - given the suggested and very small, one differential, .5 to 1 psi, - to turn on and off the boiler as needed until the thermostat is satisfied, which at that time the thermostat will end that cycle.

That is correct, if and when circumstances dictate that doing so is required. A properly sized boiler, with good Main venting should only trigger the Pressuretrol when the boiler runs for extended periods as a result of a deep set-back or extremely cold outside temps (around 0).
Most of us have an over sized boiler and can only correct that when the time comes to replace it. That is why it is so important to know what your Total Radiator EDR is. Of course there are ways to down-fire the burner some (maybe 10 to 15%) or put in a two stage gas valve to allow the boiler to run at a lower fire rate if need be but most of us work with our systems as is if the boiler has some age on it.

tsamarella

I will get that EDR by tomorrow. Thank you.

tsamarella

Hello again. Please see pic of one of the convectors. I have the formula on how to calculate the square foot EDR rating of the cast iron radiators, but do not know what the formula is for the convectors.
Before I discuss the "short cycling": First of all you might be interested to look at the picture of the T off pressuretrol that I removed last night. The pressuretrol was acting up all of a sudden, allowing the PSI to go up to 5 before cutting off. I thought I messed up the differential relay with my experiments. So I decided to give a thorough cleaning to the T. It was full of black sludge. Looked like oil. Same with the picgtail. I have been cleaning the boiler religiously, but I think this was the first time anyone cleaned these parts. Also, I cleaned the glass tube and even though the water appeared clean, when i removed it and open the valve, a lot of dirty water came out. Yet, the water from the drain valve was very clear. After I cleaned everything, including the pigtail, all is working very well with .5 cut-in and 1 differential.
Back to "short cycling": To make the long story short I am questioning, if indeed what I am experiencing is short-cycling. After lots of reading, some seasoned-fellow-steam-afficionadi explain that it is normal to have the cycle of on-off-on-off at the rate of every 2-3 minutes when the settings are as described above and they think it is a good thing. As an example, here is a discussion on the subject from this forum: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/150018/short-cycling.

Fred

You are experiencing short cycling. It is not because of the Pressuretrol settings you have, which should be low, it is because your boiler is probably over-sized for the amount of radiation attached to the system OR, because the main venting is not adequate, forcing the pressure to rise early in the heating cycle while it's trying to push air out of the mains, OR, because you are trying to recover from a Deep set-back or very cold outside and the boiler is running for an extended period of time. If/when the boiler short cycles towards the end of a cycle, that is much better than having it continue to run and build additional pressure and that's when the Pressuretrol kicks in and shuts the boiler down. Is that the ideal situation? No, ideally your boiler would be sized right, the venting would be correct, there would be only minimal set-backs and the boiler would only short cycle rarely, as a result of extreme outside temps. Unfortunately, most of us don't have those ideal circumstances and we occassionally get short cycling. So as an acceptable alternative, we let the Presuretrol do its job of controlling pressure but its original design is more a safety control, not a means to control day to day boiler operation.

tsamarella

Thank you for your reply. The short-cycling occurs only after the radiators are all toasty at the end of the cycle. I will add the Gortons #2 and I shall report back.
Nice people at this forum.

tsamarella

So I took a chance and added Gorton 2. And the results are in: Nada! Zero improvement. No difference, whatsoever. I now have two shiny new vents and less money in my pocket. The cycling of on/off continues exactly as before for 4-7 times. I might add that now that the monster vents are there, the time to reach 1.5 psi to .05 from Pressuretrol is even shorter, thus more short-cycling. It used to be 2-3 minutes now it is 1.7 minutes. Once temp is satisfied then that's it until the next cycle occurs. Still radiators toasty, still same short knocking on the first large radiator, where the steam goes first.
I wonder if my local plumbing store will give me a refund.

KC_Jones

The question I have is how long does it take to start cycling? It's not so much a question of it cycling with the main venting it's how long it will take to start cycling. I think you might be timing the wrong thing. The main venting will speed up the time it takes for the steam to reach the radiators. How long did that take and how long does it take now? Have you done your EDR calculation? I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet. Nor would I take that vent back.

tsamarella

The thermostat calls for heat: Let's say it is set for 68. When the temp in the living room drops to 67 it will come up. From that moment it will take only 3 minutes for the steam to reach the radiators and that is about the same time it took with the old vent. It takes 4.5 minutes to reach the Gorton, as it is on the return, and the boiler would run for 8-12 minutes. That's how long it takes for the Pressuretrol to reach 1.5 psi from a "cold" start. Then it depends how long it will take for the thermostat to register back 68 degrees and thus the end of the cycle. As I described earlier, the Pressuretrol will go on/off for 3-7 times, (1.5-2.5 minutes each time) depending on how long it will take for the thermostat to be satisfied.
Forgot to add: I cannot measure EDR yet as I do not know how to calculate/do not know what the formula is for the convectors with fins.

Abracadabra

Sounds to me like your boiler is oversized for the attached load.

Fred

I think you are actually seeing some overall improvement in steam effeciency. The fact that the boiler starts to short cycle a minute or two sooner suggests the system (and radiators are probably filling sooner than they were before. That's a good thing. Whe the radiators are filled, pressure starts to build because the boiler is making steam faster than the rest of the system can condense it, hence the short cycling. The amount of venting suggested to you is what is needed and is the foundation for any balancing you need to do with your system.
Unfortunately, and as I suggested earlier in this thread, it is most likely that your boiler is well over-sized for the radiation attached to it. Until you do the EDR calculations and compare that to the sq. ft. of boiler steam output, we can't give much more advice. If you need help finding the EDR of a convector, post a picture of it and the demensions and I'm sure someone on here will be able to tell you the EDR.
Also, please remember everyone on here is trying to help you but needed information is essential to that end.
Keep the vents on that Main. Short cycling, while somewhat un-nerving to many, is an appropriate way for the boiler (controls) to respond . It's not damaging anything but there may be ways to minimize the short cycles given enough information and, there may not be a good solution if you are not willing to invest a little in the system. In that case, resizing the next boiler is the only other option.

tsamarella

First of all if anyone read all of my postings on this thread would see how appreciative and thankful I am. I have always been in awe how the internet, with all its "crap" everywhere, actually has brought people together helping each other in so many different sites. The fact that I followed some suggestions, does not mean I blamed or will blame anyone ever if something does not go as we would have hoped for. Since I was a little boy I have been taking responsibility for everything I have done in my life and never blamed anyone, and I have been teaching my children the same credo!
Back to steam. I posted a few messages ago a picture of one of the fin type convectors and I am reposting it here, again. There are many fins and I am not sure how to calculate.
I will have absolute accurate timing results with the old vent and the Gortons and I will share. I think that is the only way to know if indeed-for MY situation-the Gortons enhance/improve my system. Now that the threads are clean, it is a matter of minutes to replace with the old vent. I will measure from cold start how long it takes for steam to reach the end of main, how long it takes to reach the last radiator and how long it takes to reach the main vent on the return.
Thanks again.

tsamarella

These are the results with one Gorton #2, two Gorton #2 and with the old vent.
It made no significant difference with having installed two Gortons vs one.
With the old vent in which is a No. 4 Quick Vent from The Dole Valve Co. there was approximately 30 seconds difference until the end of main got hot. All radiators get hot pretty much the same time with maybe 30 sec delay for full heat to the second floor. As I mentioned to the previous posting, the short cycling starts a minute or so sooner with the Gorton installed. With the Gorton installed the hammering on the biggest radiator is cut in half.
It is still a puzzle to me if indeed there are any significant fuel savings with short cycling vs with more differential, which would translate to less short cycling yet more continuous burning of fuel.
Lastly, the Gorton gets hot after all radiators get hot, as it is installed on the sloped return, approx ten feet from the end of the main, which makes sense as steam rises. I am wondering if I should experiment in installing the old vent-as it is much shorter and it will not hit the ceiling-where the plug is now at the end of the main and experiment with both vents installed.
So I am content the system seems more balanced with the installation of the Gorton #2 and many thanks to the experts' suggestions.

KC_Jones

More differential = more pressure. The pressure isn't steam pressure it is the pressure of the air building in front of the steam. So if you make more "steam preasure" all you are really doing is building up steam behind the air and not moving any steam into the system. If you had 100 people trying to exit a building quickly through one door which would get them out more quickly and efficiently? Another door or 100 more people? Adding pressure is adding people adding vents is adding another door. Keep the pressure down. As always just my $.02 worth.

tsamarella

Thanks. I plan to keep it where it is - up to 1.5. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, by all means. But all that I am learning stirs up different questions, which makes this whole thing pretty fascinating. At the end, through reading and conversing, with the upgrades on valves and insulation, cleaning the boiler and lowering the Pressuretrol, the system seems "calmer" and heat is more even in the house. I understand that I could get a Vapostat or even change the Gas valve or even down fire the boiler. I am still investigating.

KC_Jones

It's all a process and it can be tedious and frustrating at times. In the end no matter the outcome...you will learn a lot!