radiant tubing installed under subfloor

imcdonne

this is how the contractor installed radiant tubing in a home, the owners are saying it isn't giving off heat. what are your thoughts on how it was installed and ways to get more heat up through the floors?

Ironman

My thoughts are that whoever did this is clueless about radiant floors.

How to get more heat from it? Raise the water temp. Other than that, rip it out and do it right with heat transfer plates and a proper design.

Gordy

Yup, staple up no insulation. Clueless. Wonder what the water temps are now. Probably have ceiling radiant to the room below.

imcdonne

is there any way to use existing pipes and foil and insulation underneath, or would that not be enough with out the transfer plates?

KC_Jones

The basic issue is the tube heats what it touches. That tube is touching the joist not the floor. So basically it's heating the joist. You might get a little bit that radiates up to the floor but it isn't going to be anywhere near what is needed. As was said the install is completely wrong.

Ironman

Probably not. Foil adds no appreciable value to transferring heat.
Was a heat loss calculation done?(I think I know the answer). Radiant floors, moreso than other systems, require accurate design and calculations. It's not a matter of just hanging pipe under a floor and assuming it will work. Even with plates, the floor may not produce enough btu's and need supplementing. But without a load calc, no one knows.

Gordy

Question is .....is this the primary heat source? Or floor warming?

I see the drywall is up so the only option without total recon is turn up the water temps, unless that was already tried. If so next step is tear down drywall. Start over. May as well do extruded plates, and insulate of you go that far.

Staple up may give ya 15 btus a SF.....insulated.....maybe.

mars_6

Well there is no easy way to make that mess work. first off there is no direct contact with the sub-floor. second there is no insulation to tell the radiant energy which direction to go. third there is no aluminum heat transfer plates to direct the energy to the room above. Basically if I saw this I would say you have to tear out the sheet rock below and tear out the entire underfloor system and re do with aluminum heat transfer plates, properly install new tubing in the transfer plats at the correct length, then install R 19 insulation below the transfer plates. I guess what i am saying is the system they have cannot work ever. Well maybe if its 60 deg out it may.

Snowmelt

I'm going to say Mars comment is the best.
Start over.

Gordy

staple up is a radiant heating method that does work in low load situations. But part of that method is insulation as in any radiant floor detail. The question is will this method cover the loads. From the complaint obviously not. A side benefit you don't need a mixing valve since you have to pour the coals to it to get any kind of reasonable ouput

Rich_49

No guys , heat rises really , didn't your teacher tell you that in 5th grade science . I cannot believe some guys are still doing this . Tear it down , call it tuition and get a different contractor to fix it . It won't even warm the floor because if there's no insulation under the tubing I'd bet there isn't any at the band .

imcdonne

Thanks for all the comments guys, at least I can tell the homeowner what needs to be done!

Gordy

Get chumley the radiant heat expert back, and fix his mess so he can learn something. Before someone else comes here for advice on some more of his exquisite work.

Or you can just let chumley run wild, and follow behind him at a later date.
How long have they had this POS in place?

imcdonne

a friend of mine, they just closed on the home about a month ago, they do have central air in the home.

Ironman

Is this the only source of heat? If so, the previous HO had to know this "system" didn't work when they sold the house. If they didn't disclose that to the new buyer, then it may be time for them to see what recourse is available.

imcdonne

it is a secondary system, they do have central air in the house

Paul Pollets

Plateless jobs are hydronicheating, as Dan said in his recent column.

Don_197

if I'm not mistaken....that is also non barrier pex.....in my area the white stuff is used for potable water.........very inexpensive.

icesailor

Don said:

if I'm not mistaken....that is also non barrier pex.....in my area the white stuff is used for potable water.........very inexpensive.

You might be, Uponor HEPEX and non-Barrier water PEX look the same and come in rolls. The only way to tell when they are out of the box is the printing on the side.

There's a lot of people that think that non-barrier and barrier tube is the same.

I was always told that you're not supposed to use HEPEX on Potable Water. I've seen it done though.

The blue printing on a coiled box is supposed to signify water PEX. The Magenta printing on the coiled box is supposed to signify HEPEX. If you pay attention.

Rich_49

The box amazingly enough will say Aquapex or HePex . They also state it on the pipe . I always hated colored tubing . Ever see a job where the guy ran out of red or blue and finished anyway ? I've spent hours chasing down non existent problems , really blows ! These newer generation plumbers are gonna be stupid enough do we really require they don't have to tell right from left and give them red and blue tubing . No wonder every trade in the world is getting more stupid by the decade .

icesailor

By what they pay help, and the requirements of apprenticeship and licensing, once the current generation passes on, there will be no skilled tradespersons. They will have dumbed down everything so that any fool can do it.

I read in a book recently where someone taught two chimpanzee's or Gorilla's American Sign Language. Separately. One day, the two animals were introduced to each other. They got in to a big argument in American Sign Language. If you can teach a Primate sign language, you can teach them to run pipes. Someone, somewhere, would be glad to pay them in peanuts to work for them. Running pipe and not talking.

Can you imagine the serenity on a job without four radios blasting on four different stations?

RobG

icesailor said:

By what they pay help, and the requirements of apprenticeship and licensing, once the current generation passes on, there will be no skilled tradespersons. They will have dumbed down everything so that any fool can do it.

I read in a book recently where someone taught two chimpanzee's or Gorilla's American Sign Language. Separately. One day, the two animals were introduced to each other. They got in to a big argument in American Sign Language. If you can teach a Primate sign language, you can teach them to run pipes. Someone, somewhere, would be glad to pay them in peanuts to work for them. Running pipe and not talking.

Actually, you would pay apes with bananas and elephants with peanuts.

Gordy

Pink elephants