Strange Noise In Indirect Water Heater Or Possibly Boiler

Docfletcher

Sounds like marbles spinning in a coffee can. Noise comes and goes randomly but seems more often and louder lately . Most noticeable after a shower. Noise when boiler is firing and when boiler is not firing. Shutting down water supply to indirect water heater makes noise stop. Closing off the ball valve partially will reduce the noise.

One more thing, my son said he heard pipes banging last night as he was going to bed. I've never heard such banging.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks Don

unclejohn

Mixing valve maybe?

Docfletcher

Mixing valve has not been installed. I'm thinking it may be some sort of cavitation from the ciculator.

Zman

Cavitation is a possibility.
Can you post some pictures of the piping and circulator?
What is the water pressure of the boiler side?
Carl

Docfletcher

Here a photo, will get more up tomorrow. There is 16psi at 140F.
You can see a small section of the cold water inlet to tank below conveyor insulation.

http://screencast.com/t/apY1KZ6ChmX

kcopp

Its the check vale on the inlet side of the pump. Not a great idea. The pump can cavitate in that position. Better to have it on the outlet.

Docfletcher

No check valve. I believe what your seeing is the ball valve.

kcopp

looked like a spring check.

Docfletcher

There is a restriction there because the pipe goes from 3/4" to 1".

Zman

The picture is too close. An overall view of the piping would be better.

Docfletcher

Here is a better photo.

http://screencast.com/t/mD97dAYiHZ57

3/4" in and 1" out of circulator.

icesailor

That illegal and outlawed vent system should have been replaced long ago when it was recalled.

It sounds like the boiler is overheating on high limit when only the indirect is calling. If the High Limit is set at 180 degrees, try dropping it to 170 or 160 degrees and see if the noise goes away.

What kind of improper gaskets are on those Taco 007 circulators. Certainly not the ones that came in the box to be used for the install.

Docfletcher

The blue Grundfos circulator has the correct gaskets. I have no idea what gaskets are in the green circculators. They are from 1996, I simply can't remember. I just took a close look at them and they are green, the same green as the painted circulators.

I will lower the high limit and the pressure as well.

Here for grins is a photo of the replacement boiler circulator with for sure the correct gaskets.

http://screencast.com/t/bbqRb0xRucE7

I'm well aware of the black pipe issue. I will replace it in due course. But I don't want to mess around with it middle of winter. Like I previously said here on the board... It is in very good condition with no cracks or chips and it's well sealed.

Thanks for looking out for me, and your help.

Docfletcher

I think the Groundfos is failing. The noise is there whenever it turns on. If someone jumps in the shower with the boiler off at 140F the noise will start as soon as the water heater calls for heat.

The failing circulator is the Groundfos UP 15-41FR, used horizontal. I can either replace it with the same model or replace it with the UP 15-10FR. Would there be an advantage to going to the 15-10? Or am I better off sticking with the 15-42?

Docfletcher

Bump

icesailor

Is that a Weil-McLain GV- Series 1 or 2 boiler? Is that black tee with the plug in it the thermostatic mixer?

If so, the thermostat may be failing and sticking in a position that doesn't pass enough water through the HX and the HX is flashing in to steam. If it is a GV Series 1 or 2.

All those gaskets look correct. There are specific gaskets that come with the new circulators, that many don't use and the correct ones aren't usually found in hardware stores. The correct gasket is not in the shape of a flange with two holes for the bolts and one large opening for the water to pass through.

The circulator in the second photo has been replaced. It has "HRT" embossed on the volute body. Is that the correct circulator for that boiler. They are pretty specific to that particular boiler if it is a GV.

If it IS a Series 1 or 2 GV boiler, it is piped and pumped correctly, but there is a possibility that the thermostat was failing. The pumps weren't able to provide enough hot water because of the restriction. So, they put bigger pumps on because of it. Bigger pumps aren't the solution. Understanding the intent of the manufacturer is part of the solution.

Is the I/O manual still there? Can you post the information on the boiler? Model # and size?

Docfletcher

Ice, here is a link to the thread in which we previously talked about the circulator I replaced. (Just to refresh memory.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/152213/if-the-boiler-circulator-fails/p1

Docfletcher

It's a series 2, and the black plug is the therm mixer.

The old circulator was a Taco 007 (the black one that Taco uses for circulators supplied to boiler companies. I called Taco because I could not find a black one. Taco said just use a regular green 007.

It's 108000 BTU in and 88000 btu out

GV4 series 2 Natural gas.

If the mixer were restricted wouldn't that cause no heat?

I'm pretty sure the groundfos circ is failing. I don't know why except to say maybe something to do with moving it to horizontal after 20 years vertical.

The boiler circ failed because water got into the windings.

What does HRT on the ciculator body mean?

Docfletcher

I lowered the boiler pressure and dropped the high limit to 170F. It did not seem to help matters any. So if you guys can chime in on this it might help me get a handle on this.

icesailor

It depends on the place that the mixer is stuck at.

If the boiler burner is running, and all zones are calling for heat, it should reach an equilibrium sooner or later. If the water temperature in the boiler doesn't equal the boiler in the system, it hasn't reached an equilibrium. Whatever the temperature through the mixer, determines what the system temperature is. The stuck mixer acts like a partially closed valve, setting the flow rate through the boiler and system.

As I see it.

Docfletcher

Well I think this spring I'll pull that cap, remove the mixer, plug the hole per the Weil Mclain TSB I was told about here on the board. I will do this in order to dismiss it from any future issues. In the meantime I have ordered a new Grundfos 15-42fr. So I will have it on hand should the need arise which I most certainly feel it will.

Here is a link to what my Groundfos sounds like. The circ in the video was recently moved like mine was. The second link sound more like mine than the 1st link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITDBAf3Bitw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0p_6I6C8lc

Docfletcher

When I install the new circulator I would like to add an auto air vent. To do so would I also need to to use an air scoop to place the vent in? Or is there a better way?