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Timer for steam boiler?

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agurkas
agurkas Member Posts: 238
in Strictly Steam
Out of curiosity, is there a timing device (that doesn't cost a fortune) that can stop boiler from turning on either for X amount of time from when it turned off or not allow boiler to run for longer than X minutes in a given period of time.

So say the boiler reached 1.5PSI, shuts off, but device then would not let it fire up again for 15 minutes, even after pressure has gone down below threshold.

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  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    You just gave a partial description of @MarkS EcoSteam. @ChrisJ
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
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    KC_Jones,
    I read posts about it. I was more looking at sub-$200 budget range.
  • RJ_4
    RJ_4 Member Posts: 484
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    I believe Grainger sells a cycle relay, I used one years ago for a similar application

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • wcs5050
    wcs5050 Member Posts: 131
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    What do you think about Tekmar 279?, (besides it costing ~$950!) From what I partially understand, it utilizes outdoor reset and timing based on condensate temp via return sensor. Seems like a risky sell.
  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
    edited January 2015
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    RJ said:

    I believe Grainger sells a cycle relay, I used one years ago for a similar application

    Did you have this in mind?
    http://www.grainger.com/product/MACROMATIC-Timer-Relay-23NU84?functionCode=P2IDP2PCP
  • RJ_4
    RJ_4 Member Posts: 484
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    Sorry , it was so long ago, Grainger has a pretty good tech/application dept, call them and explain what your controlling, I was keeping the steam boiler off to allow all the steam radiation to go to 0 psig , to allow the Dan Foss 1 pipe control valves to cycle correctly

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
    edited January 2015
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    Would love to get guidance on which type I need, since there ae several types of time delay
    http://www.macromatic.com/blog/understanding-time-delay-relay-functions/

    I think I need "On Delay" type, which I would wire in series after pressuretrol
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    http://www.mcmaster.com/#general-purpose-timer-relays/=vk8twx

    Check out this page for a whole bunch of timing relay options all less than $100.

    I recommend considering getting away from pressure as a control altogether. Just use a timing relay to space the firings out from the call signal.

    Think of it this way - a system that is filled with steam to any max pressure cutoff point is filling to what is needed to heat on design day. How often does design day outside temp happen? Never, so why ever fill to that point. 90% of the time you don't need 1/2 that. That is why you see so much discussion here about trying to control on and off at ultra low pressures - because that is all that is needed. But what is actually needed is so low that the control itself then becomes a pain. I think most systems will heat just fine without ever getting up to a controllable pressure if you just spread out the firings.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
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    @PMJ,
    Absolutely. I have some good thick oldschool rads, so giving them bit of steam and leaving them be is hiw I want it to work.

    Do you think timer should be on 24v or 110v side? How would you wire it in?
  • wcs5050
    wcs5050 Member Posts: 131
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    Oh I get it. I recently found this adjustable time delay switch meant for blower control. ICM251. Adjustable make and break, large range. I think it could work. Cool idea. I'm pretty sure it can switch 24 and 110.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
    edited January 2015
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    I wish that ICM251 had more than a 3 min on delay. It might possibly be a way to trick a CycleGard into not interrupting your burns to do the intermittent (so called) "foam" test. The one I'm looking at has a 1-180 sec on delay, 12-390 sec off delay:

    http://www.supplyhouse.com/ICM-Controls-ICM251-ICM251-Fan-Blower-Control-Dual-On-Off-Delay-Timer-Adjustable-Time-Delay
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    @MarkS - I went to look at your circuit but the pictures are gone from that 5 year old link :(
  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
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    How about something like this inserting in between thermostat and gas gun?
    http://www.supplyhouse.com/ICM-Controls-ICM305-ICM305-Duty-Cycle-Timer-Time-Delay-in-Minutes - this could do cycles. So I could do something like 20 minute cycles. If thermostat calls for it, I get 20 minute, unless it shuts off. If it is not satisfied after 20 minutes, thermostat can keep firing open, but boiler won't fire. Hopefully thermostat gets satisfied in time it is waiting.

    What do you think?
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    agurkas said:

    @PMJ,

    Absolutely. I have some good thick oldschool rads, so giving them bit of steam and leaving them be is hiw I want it to work.



    Do you think timer should be on 24v or 110v side? How would you wire it in?

    Assuming your tsat is switching 24vac to the controls now I would use that to power this relay and the switching contact on the relay to switch 24 volts to the burner. If you get a relay that you can adjust both the off and on lengths of the output contacts then you can make any on/off cycle you want for the burner whenever the tsat is calling for heat. I started out this way before going to a PLC.

    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
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    @PMJ,
    There is also this about 3X more expensive unit (still probably can get ROI out of it) http://www.supplyhouse.com/ICM-Controls-ICM500-ICM500-Multimode-Digital-Timer-24-VAC-8-Pin
    But I don't see it being able to do both on and off timing adjustment.
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    agurkas said:

    @PMJ,
    There is also this about 3X more expensive unit (still probably can get ROI out of it) http://www.supplyhouse.com/ICM-Controls-ICM500-ICM500-Multimode-Digital-Timer-24-VAC-8-Pin
    But I don't see it being able to do both on and off timing adjustment.


    http://www.mcmaster.com/#6964k12/=vkbhvr

    Been a while but this might even be the one I used.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    Check out this file. I have some Macromatic relays in other applications at 120V. Looks like they have everything in all voltages though. I think Newark and Allied electronics are the main distributors.

    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,861
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    Maybe I’m thinking to simple but raise the cut out pressure to 2.5 and keep the cut in at 0. Less controls to fail! and its free
  • agurkas
    agurkas Member Posts: 238
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    @PMJ,
    One of my motivations to do it in 24V instead of 110V is because, I think, gun runs at 10A and need to do BX cabling etc.
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    agurkas said:

    @PMJ,
    One of my motivations to do it in 24V instead of 110V is because, I think, gun runs at 10A and need to do BX cabling etc.

    I'm not that familiar with the gas conversion guns. I'd be surprised if the full load of the whole device went through the control circuit but others would know about that better than I. Anyway the PDF link above has everything in all voltages.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • bklynfrank
    bklynfrank Member Posts: 15
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    I've used an ELK-960 triggered by the vaporstat. Triggered by r-b and using the n/c side of the relay to break the call for heat. You can do 1-60 minutes on the time off. Not professional looking but inexpensive @ $20. The unit needs 12-24dc, you need a wallwart to power it.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-960-delay-timer-module

    Specifications:
    • Operating Voltage: 12 to 24 Volts DC.
    • Current Draw: 40 mA DC with relay on.
    • Time Settings: 1 to 60 Seconds or 1 to 60 Minutes.
    • Relay Contacts: Form "C", 7A @ 30VDC, 10 A @ 125VAC.
    • Size: 3" x 2.2" x 1" (Fits Standard. Snap Track).
    • Trigger Voltage: 4.5 - 24VDC.

    The unit needs a DC voltage trigger?

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