The Case of the Vanishing Boiler Water- New Peerless 63-05

JoshS

It's the same thermostat I had with the old boiler. The old boiler ran constantly and never really cycled off on a cold day.

Any recommendations on a thermostat?

BTW, it looks like I have only 3 parts to swap out to downfire my boiler... The burner tray rear support, gas manifold, and the flue collector.

Captain Who

"it looks like I have only 3 parts to swap out to downfire my boiler... The burner tray rear support, gas manifold, and the flue collector."

Sounds great. How much in $? I'd like to downfire mine too but unfortunately I already have the downfired model 63-04L.

What thermostat do you have?

JoshS

Ready for it... $141 in parts. It's hardly worth it NOT to do it. The hardest part will be the flue collector since I have to disconnect my header. The burner stays intact and I just replace the gas manifold. Sounds like an easy afternoon...

This is my current thermostat-
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Pro1-IAQ-T701-T701-Digital-Non-Programmable-Thermostat-1H-1C

Fred

JoshS said:

It's the same thermostat I had with the old boiler. The old boiler ran constantly and never really cycled off on a cold day.

Any recommendations on a thermostat?

BTW, it looks like I have only 3 parts to swap out to downfire my boiler... The burner tray rear support, gas manifold, and the flue collector.

Most of us use a Honeywell progrmable. I have the RTH 7000 series. Just make sure whatever one you get, that it can be configured for 1 and 2 Cycles per hour. I1 CPH is for Steam, 2CPH is actually for Hot Water Heat but some of the guys on here find the 2CPH provides a more even heat. I like 1CPH, It's a matter oof personal preference.

It sounds like you can down fire fairly easily. You may want to consider a 2 stage gas valve as another option also. I think the only thing that has to change with a 2 stage gas valve is the valve itself and you probably have to have 2 Vaporstats. The boiler will run a full load until it gets to a certian pressure and then step down to about 60%.

Captain Who

That's a great price, too bad about having to remove the header.

Your thermostat (from the installation manual):

The swing setting, often called CYCLE
RATE, DIFFERENTIAL or ANTICIPATION
is adjustable. A smaller swing setting will
cause more frequent cycles and a larger
swing setting will cause fewer cycles.

The swing is
adjustable from ±0.4°F to ±2°F. For
example: A swing setting of 0.5°F
will turn the cooling on at approximately
0.5°F above the setpoint and
turn the cooling off at approximately
0.5°F below the setpoint. The
factory default for cooling is 0.5°F
and 0.4°F for heating.

So what do you have your "swing" set to? If it is still set to the factory default of 0.4 F, I think you'll definitely want to jack that up to around 0.9 F or so.

My White Rodgers 1F97-1277 only has 2 settings: 0.6 F and 1.2 F. Yours is better in that regard. I currently have mine set at 1.2 F but I'm wishing for an in between setting. On Wednesday cycles were running around 18min on time in a 97 min cycle.

Fred

For the money, down-sizing the burner sounds like the way to go.
The problem with your heating cycles is definitely due to the thermostat. The one you have now can't be programed for the number of cycles per hour. It has a default of either 5 or 6 cycles per hour for forced air and Central air.

vaporvac

I'm with Fred. You might at least inquire about the two-stage gas valve since this is a new install and you'll be using this boiler for many years to come.That way you still have the capability to add more edr and you'll get more efficiency out of the boiler over the long term. I have staging (twinned boilers) and it's worked out very well.

Captain Who

The irony of this for me is that after pointing out to JoshS that his boiler is too large for his radiation I proceeded to do some checks on my own and came up with:

Peerless 63-04L Boiler rating: 383 sq ft of steam
My 9 radiators total Radiation Area: 262.5 sq ft
2 Removed radiators (previous owner): 41 sq ft total

So my boiler is a whopping 46% oversized !! I knew that it was oversized by the short time to recover from a overnight setback of 8 deg (about 40 to 45 min burner time) and the short time to go from cut-in to cut-out when cycling on the pressuretrol (1 min 52 secs)

Even if it was practical to reinstall the 2 removed radiators (not), it would still be 26% oversized.

One of the removed radiators was in the 1st floor kitchen apparently where my cabinets are now located and the other one was on the 2nd floor near the base of the stairs to the attic which was converted into a 3rd floor bedroom (roof was raised several feet after a fire). 3rd floor bedroom is unheated (no radiator at all was installed during the remodeling).

If ever there was a need for a 2 stage burner upgrade this is it. My boiler is a standing pilot currently.

vaporvac

That's funny, @Captain Who‌ ! Sometimes we need to take our own advice. Does the 3rd fl bdrm stay warm? How do you heat your kitchen now?

Captain Who

@vaporvac - lol yeah well as I said I knew it was oversized just not that much! Unfortunately all the dirty work was done by the previous owner. When I bought the house around 10+ years ago and we were doing the house inspection, the inspector was heading up the stairs after giving everything his thumbs up when I said .........wait a minute what's that misty cloud hanging over the boiler and what's that smell, whereupon he said "This boiler has a leak and will have to be replaced". I said yeah it sure is a good thing you caught that huh? That would've cost me 7 or 8k. Unfortunately I didn't know very much about steam at the time and I didn't think to take a close look at what size boiler was there and didn't know about sizing boilers based upon existing radiators or anything. All that was left up to the idiot previous owner and whatever knucklehead he hired, assuming he didn't do the install himself. There's plenty of stuff screwed up with the install that he very well may have done it himself.

The 3rd bedroom most decidedly does NOT stay warm . I have thought about putting in a cold air return that would suck air in at the floor and blow it down to the first floor through a slow speed squirrel cage blower that would turn on and off by the thermostat. Not sure that'd be all that much easier than installing another steam pipe to go up there though.

The kitchen actually has another radiator in the informal dining area which is 27 sq ft, 3 col, 9 sec, 21-1/2" high. The one that was removed was either a 21 sq ft, 5 tube, 6 sec, 25-3/4" or a 20 sq ft, 2 col, 5 sec, 38" high. I'm betting it was the latter.

JoshS

So would that be replacing just the gas valve rather than down firing?

Water level has been ok since I skimmed all day Sunday. We'll see...

Here's a video of the gurgling I get in the kitchen radiator- Steam Radiator Gurgling: http://youtu.be/875F6pdj22Y

Fred

It would entail changing the gas valve and adding 2 Vaporstats. One Vaporstat would cut in and Cut-out the high flame (at it's current burn rate) at specific presures, in ounces and the second one would cut-in where the first cut-out and would Cut-out at another designated pressure, somewhere around 12 oz. of pressure.
The idea is on those cold days where the boiler runs long enough to cut-out on pressure (with the gas valve that is there now) it would instead get to a pressure that was somewhere around half of that and then kick down to 60% or so and run until the thermostat was satisfied.

Do you have that radiator pitched back towards the pipe enough to let the condensate drain back into the pipe? It sounds like it has a lot of water in it. If the radiator is pitched enough, check the supply pipe in the basement that feeds that radiator and make sure it also is pitched back towards the Main.

JoshS

Yes, the main and radiator are both pitched. The other radiator on that main doesn't have and issues... maybe I'll pull the valve and make sure something isnt hanging up there.

KC_Jones

Sometimes the valve can cause issues if the disc comes loose. It can fall on the seat and it will act like it's closed until steam hits it then the steam will gurgle up under it, but condensate can not return. You get a similar situation with an almost closed valve. I would second your thought of checking the valve.

Fred

Is it still doing that after the skim? Make sure the inlet valve is fully open so water can drain out. I pie systems, inlet valves have to be fully open or fully closed. Amount of radiation (heat) is adjusted by the size of the radiator vent you use.
That's a long radiator. Make sure it is pitched enough.

JoshS

I'll take a look at the valve... yes, Fred, this was after the skimming. Inlet is fully open and radiator is sloped pretty decently. I have a 1" block on the high end, call it an inch over 4'-0".

Water still looks bad, so I'm going to skim again at some point.

Can I install forced air yet?

KC_Jones

JoshS said:

Can I install forced air yet?

We may have to hurt you now.

Fred

You can never install forced air. You are the caretaker of this system for the next generation or until they carry you to the insane asylum, whichever comes first.
EDIT: I really do expect when you get all thee oils out of the water, the problem will be gone.

JoshS

Having a historic home, I only consider myself a caretaker and typically keep all original components intact, heating system included. Besides, it's the most comfortable heat I've ever had!

I'm out of town on business until tomorrow... I'll update then!

nicholas bonham-carter

Do you still see the loss of water in the system? These other problems such as sagging piping, and dirty water are only hiding the water, and not making it disappear for ever.
Try letting the boiler sit, turned off for an hour or so, and mark the water line. Next day, turn it off again for an hour, and compare the waterline with the previous day's mark, and you will see either permanent loss or not.--NBC

JoshS

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Do you still see the loss of water in the system? These other problems such as sagging piping, and dirty water are only hiding the water, and not making it disappear for ever.
Try letting the boiler sit, turned off for an hour or so, and mark the water line. Next day, turn it off again for an hour, and compare the waterline with the previous day's mark, and you will see either permanent loss or not.--NBC

Yes, I follow what you're saying about sagging pipes, etc. Only so much water can hide and not leave the system, and that amount is finite.

It's definitely permanent loss. If I turn it off, it levels off in the sight glass after a few minutes as the radiators are condensing. It won't go up after that, no matter how long I leave it off for.

Is over venting a radiator possible? Maybe the vents are too aggressive on some of the radiators and lettings some steam out. Also,I just realized I have a lot vari-valve vents left (4-5) on my system, and they tend to spit once in a while. I know a lot of steamheads don't like the varivalves, but I'm not clear why.

Fred

How much water would you estimate you are losing over the course of 24 hours? A pint? a quart? a gallon? More?

JoshS

The more it runs (colder weather), the more I lose. Between Sunday evening and Tuesday night, I'd say about a gallon, maybe a half inch in the sight glass. That's at 30 degree highs and 20 degree lows outside. When it was colder last week, I lost enough to trigger the LWCO in about 3 days.

KC_Jones

Do you have any hidden pipes? Any pipes in a crawl space with a dirt floor? That water is leaking somewhere. I can't imagine that volume coming out as steam. This might sound crazy, do you have a way to measure the humidity in the house? If it was a steam leak at that volume I would think it would be keeping your humidity level up?! Someone feel free to call me crazy on that one. This has to be driving you crazy...knowing there is a leak and can't find it. I would be going nuts. You may have to go joint by joint through the system and check for leaks. Not sure what else can be done at this point?! Another possibility is a whole bunch of small steam leaks that are adding up to a lot of water. Leaking vents, valves etc. It can add up after a while.

Fred

Yep, there is a leak somewhere. May take some time to find but you have to investigate. Do you have any Flange couplings on your Mains? (Large round joint with a flat surface where two pipes join together and have 4 or 5 bolts around the outside edge)
Those joints have a gasket in between the two halves and can leak. The pipe gets hot enough that the water just steams away in such a subtle manner that you don't notice it unless you watch the joint with a flash light while the boiler is running. It took me weeks to find one leaking on my system. It was losing about a pint of water a day from there.

Captain Who

@JoshS - My Peerless 63-04L is 28-1/8" x 20-3/8" and 10.8 gal
Your 63-05 is 28-1/8" x 24-5/8" and 12.4 gal

If I draw 3.27 qts off of mine the sight glass goes down around 1"
So, yours should be something like 3.95 qts per inch.

That'd mean 1/2 inch was more like 2 qts, not 1 gal.

A mirror works great for finding steam leaks at joints in piping and vents.

I think you need to measure it like I did and get a tighter handle on it.

JoshS

@KC_Jones‌ yes, this is indeed driving me bonkers. House is dry enough to cause my older daughter winter nose bleeds. It doesn't feel humid at all. No hidden steam pipes..
It's all above the slab.

@Fred‌ Yes! I have one very rusty flange off the main connecting the bathroom radiator. I'll investigate when I'm home.

@Captain Who Thanks for the info... I'll investigate what a half inch equals on my system. Your adaptation sounds correct.

BRIANJ

Hi Josh,
From my own experience I would agree with Fred. Although the initial expense will be more than the Peerless upgrade, using two vaporstats, a maxitrol 2-stage gas valve and a low pressure gauge will give you a much more efficient system and you won't have to do anything with the Header. I did the same on my Broomell system some time ago and was experiencing savings of just over 20% on my gas bill. On low fire my system is running at 1.5 oz./in2. That Maxitol gas valve is adjustable and not set for a particular reduction. You adjust it to get the results you want.

Also, I believe that short cycling you mentioned is too regular I would suggest you check out that cycle guard. It is programmed to shut down the system and take a minute or two to check for low water and restart the steam cycle. I found it was interupting the steam cycle to often and replaced it with a MacDonnell and Miller low water cut-off. I don't mind going to the basement regularly and checking the water level on the boiler.

Good Luck.

JoshS

Thanks @BrianJ. I think I'll go that route once I get the leak figured out. I'll also need to wrap my mind completely about how to do the two stage valve and all. It sounds simple enough. I'm all about saving money... my gas bill last month was $800. Granted, that was the old boiler with a suspected busted pressuretrol, but still...

The CycleGuard lights up when it's interrupting the heating cycle. It usually intervenes about once every 20 minutes or so, so I don't think that's the issue with the short cycling. The cycle times I have vary a little bit, maybe 15 seconds in either direction. It's hard to time them for a period longer than 20 minutes thanks to the CycleGuard though... Regardless, a new LWCO is on my list.

So after returning from my work trip, I checked my water usage. I left the system off for about an hour to let everything drain back. The auto feed kicked in while I was gone and added a gallon and it took another gallon beyond that to top it off. So final amount is 2 gallons since Sunday evening (5 days).

Off to borrow one of my wife's hair mirrors to look for leaks...

jch1

What's the model number on your CycleGard? That will tell you how often the check runs and for how long. For example, mine was the CG450-1560, meaning it did the check every 15 minutes and the check lasted for 60 seconds.

Fred

Everybody hates the Cyclegard because of the burner interuptions. Use a Safe Gard. They are also probe type and no interuption (unless required for a low water condition)

Captain Who

Make sure you have the SmartCycle feature enabled by running a wire from the gas valve hot to the appropriate terminal on the CycleGard. That way it will minimize the interruptions of your burner on periods.

How low does your water have to get below the NWL for that feeder to add water. In my setup (Peerless 63-04L) it looks like the probe for the LWCO (CycleGard CG400-2090) is about 4 in below NWL. That'd be about 3.7 gal to get it back to NWL for me.

JoshS

CycleGuard is a CG450-1560, so I guess I was close with the 20 minutes guesstimate.

@Captain Who‌ Thanks for the tip... my gas valve is 24v and my LWCO is 120v. Is that an issue? I assume the LWCO just needs a signal that the gas valve is powered which 24v should suffice for. I seem to remember the LWCO kicking in at around the same level as yours and the auto feed is set to add one gallon when it's triggered. It's triggered while there's still condensate returning, so that would explain why it only took 2 gallons.

Captain Who

"my gas valve is 24v and my LWCO is 120v. Is that an issue?"

It may be. I switched to the 24V model CycleGard because the instructions seemed to imply that you had to hook it to a 120V oil burner valve. I just didn't want to take a chance but that could be a good question to ask Hydrolevel and get a definitive answer, assuming you can get someone knowledgeable over there to help.

I don't have a feeder but if I did and I was having water level issues while I was home, I'd definitely disable it so that I could get a better handle on how much water I'm having to add to maintain NWL.

EDIT: From the CG450 instructions for "SmartCycle Optional Activation":

"Connect “BURNER” terminal on the
CycleGard control to the orange
burner wire (120VAC) located
under the oil burner transformer."

JoshS

Well, I found something! It doesn't seem like a 2 gallon a week leak, but I know leaks can be misleading. It also looks like a nightmare to fix. It's definitely whistling pretty good too. Thanks to Captain Who for the mirror trick...

The feeder is a Hydrolevel, so it keeps track of what I'm using which I found actually convenient.

Fred

You'd be surprised how much water can steam away, especially if it is large enough to whistle. Gotta fix it, tough as it may be, a good pro will know how best to go about it.

Captain Who

I'm glad the mirror worked for you. It looks like it is a small hole in the top of the fitting or pipe? Can't really tell from the photo.

I've fixed lots of holes by wrapping with a piece of aluminum sheathing with epoxy putty spread out on it first. I usually clean the pipe as good as I can first. I use a combination of hose clamps and electrical tape to secure it and squish the epoxy putty out somewhat. If it is an area that you want to put insulation back on over it, you can probably safely remove the hose clamps and just leave the electrical tape. I am using the type of sheathing that comes in a roll and is white on one side and brown on the other. I believe it is painted but it may be anodized.

JoshS

Yes, it's at the top of the fitting. I think age has done in the fitment of the pipe into the fitting and there's a slight leak.

I'm all about trying epoxy. I don't see any way these pipes are coming apart without a pretty huge fight and/or wrecking adjacent fittings.

Captain Who

If it is right where the pipe threads into the 45 ell, you might try high temperature silicone RTV. It comes in a squeeze tube or caulking tube. I always prefer to back up the repair with the sheathing material but if it is where I think it is you might not be able to do that here. At least that could get you through the heating season until you could more conveniently repair it correctly. For all you know there are more leaks like that though and if you fix this one you can see how much water you may still be losing.

Fred

I've tried the epoxy route. May last a few weeks but with corrosion there, it just doesn't hold. I think you may have to bite the bullet and have it fixed correctly by replacing it and maybe the surrounding pipe/fittings. You spent too much for that boiler to let replenishment water shorten its life or to be stressed out waiting for a patch to fail, and unfortunately, it will. Get it fixed so you don't have a blow-out during a cold spell. Looks like a good amount of rust in that area.