Gorton Vents #1 or #2

SWEI

ChrisJ said:

You cannot go by this time last year, or any other year.
You must compare how much fuel you used compared to the outdoor temperature. This is done using heating degree days.

Unfortunately I'm drawing a blank right now on how to do it. I recall there being a chart that you can download in Excel format and then there's a simple formula for calculating it and comparing different months etc.

Go to http://www.degreedays.net/ and pick a PWS near you. Download daily data for the past X months. Open in Excel (or any spreadsheet app) and prune the rows 'till they match your meter reading or tank filling dates. The first thing you want is BTUs per degree day. This will allow you to compare various months with previous performance. There's more when you have time.

vaporvac

I meant pressure gauge. Thanks for catching that. I really should just give up. I always forget to ReAD what I write. Sorry for spreading mis-information.

Captain Who

Maybe it should be BTU/degree day/square foot * avg room temp

Of course then we'd all have to have a datalogger that monitors the temperature of every single room in the house.

I guess I'm just making the point that someone (like me) could be cheating by heating their main living space to a higher temp than the rest of the house, by purposely having the radiator venting balanced that way. What matters is how much energy is present on average in the entire cubic foot airspace of the house.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

The final comparison is BTU/degree day/square foot

This allows any of us, in theory, to compare different systems and different sized buildings, and different localities.

@MarkS and I have been doing it and he's less than 1/2 of what I burn. I still don't see how he does it.

I know how he goes it.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

dbailey is here in Dayton, right around the corner from me. Our gas provider shows the average daily temp for the current month, the average daily temp for the same month a year ago, the gas cost per unit, the number of units used and the number of billing days in each of those periods. I would think the info is there to do the calculations, even though it doesn't factor in wind chills, it should be a very good indicator. One would also have to assume other gas appliances were used relatively the same during those periods, but that is relatively normalized unless there was a known deviation.
If for some reason, it isn't on the bill, a call to them will get that info. We can get a 12 month usage history on request. i would assume most utilities have to provide something similaar (maybe only on request but it should be available)
EDIT: Of course it assumes the thermostat was set similarly during those periods ???

Hi Fred,
Yep, my gas company does that as well. They even give a nice bar graph as well.

Problem is, it's never matched my local HDD. Not sure where the gas co gets them from but it's not here.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

dbailey is here in Dayton, right around the corner from me. Our gas provider shows the average daily temp for the current month, the average daily temp for the same month a year ago, the gas cost per unit, the number of units used and the number of billing days in each of those periods. I would think the info is there to do the calculations, even though it doesn't factor in wind chills, it should be a very good indicator. One would also have to assume other gas appliances were used relatively the same during those periods, but that is relatively normalized unless there was a known deviation.
If for some reason, it isn't on the bill, a call to them will get that info. We can get a 12 month usage history on request. i would assume most utilities have to provide something similaar (maybe only on request but it should be available)
EDIT: Of course it assumes the thermostat was set similarly during those periods ???

Hi Fred,
Yep, my gas company does that as well. They even give a nice bar graph as well.

Problem is, it's never matched my local HDD. Not sure where the gas co gets them from but it's not here.

Oh well, I tried to help. wasn't going to be an exact science but I thought it would be close. Sounds like too may variables.

dbailey

I am wondering does anyone have any real results when using a 2-stage gas valve and what is the difference between Gorton #1's and #2's as far as the ability to remove the air content any faster ? Also my comparison to last years bill and this year is what Fred said and my ccf is at a higher rate this year compared to last . Thermostat stays the same no change . Bump it up a little when maybe tired and usually only a degree but is set at 66 when at home and 62 when we are away and 63 at night starting at 11:00pm.

KC_Jones

A Gorton #2 vents roughly 3 times what a Gorton #1 does. If you price them both out the price for 3 #1 is roughly what the #2 costs. I use #1 valves because I have virtually zero clearance above my mains so the #2 has no chance of fitting.

Captain Who

1 CCF is 100 cu ft of gas (the first C is the 100x multiplier). That would be what you want to use for comparisons, or actually CCF/ degree days. That way you leave the price of gas out of the equation.

dbailey

Could someone please recommend a good boiler air pressure gage ? I just finished installing to #2 Gorton's on the ends of my mains and so far so good . Worked Great boiler ran for about 3 to 5 maybe 4 minutes when steam reached the vents and bang closed as they should . The Hoffman's were about 5 to 7 years old and started not wanting to shut last year so while I was home would have to run down to the basement give them a tap before they would close. I tried cleaning them out with heated up vinegar in a pan but no luck . I still am wondering what kind of real world results with a 2-stage gas valve ?

Fred

Attached is the link for the Low Pressure gauge most of us use. It is a 0-3PSI gauge and needs to be mounted on a pigtail or tee's off of an exsisting pigtail: http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi

As far as the 2 stage gas valve is concerned, it will probably only kick to the lower burn when the boiler has to run for extended periods, like recovery from a set-back or when the temps outside get down around 0 degrees. That's when it will help prevent short cycling. You certainly can watch the boiler for a while and determine if it short cycles enough to warrant putting a 2 stage gas valve on there. Also, when you put a low Pressure gauge on, you will be better able to tell what pressures you are running during a normal cycle. If it stays in the 1 to 6 OZ. range, then the gas valve won't do a lot (except on recovery and 0 weather) If it goes up much above 6 Oz. to 10 or 12 Oz., on a normal cycle, then the gas valve will kick to lower fire on most cycles and save some fuel as well as set you up for fewer short cycles.
My boiler is about 20% over ized and I don't have a 2 stage valve and I run at about 2 OZ. on a normal cycle and only on 0 Days do I get a few short cycles. Doesn't hurt the boiler in any way. I eliminated all set-backs because that was when I'd see most short cycles and I found I wasn't saving anything anyway. (A topic of debate on this site)

dbailey

Hey Fred I lost your answer ?

KC_Jones

When you accept an answer it goes to the beginning of the thread look at page 1 of this thread.

dbailey

dbailey said:

Hey Fred I lost your answer ?

I found it .

dbailey

I had some time to stop in and just wanted to mention that my next heating bill after the one I talked about here earlier was $110.00 cheaper again compared to last year this time and what I have also noticed is that my radiator's are heating so much more in surface area than they did with the WeilMclain EG-95 I had in here before . The radiator's before would be cold towards the bottom of each. This WeilMclain EG-105 to me was and is what I think I needed even though I may be oversized somewhat as I said the surface area of the radiators are heating from top to bottom end to end which seems to me I am getting the full heating potential of my radiator's. The Gorton No. 2's are working Great also, all I need to do now later on this spring is install one more in the middle of each of the 2-mains .

Again thanks to everyone here for so much help and Fred I have not forgotten to get ahold of you later on this month or next.

Fred

I'm glad it worked so well dbailey. It is over-sized for sure but the key is to keep the pressure down as low as possible and have good venting on the mains.
I'm not sure why you'd want to put vents in the middle of the Mains though. They will close about half way through the Mains getting fully hot (because steam will hit them early) and you won't get the full venting advantage that you'd get if you put them all at the ends of the Mains.

KC_Jones

In addition to what Fred said when the boiler cycles the next time those vents will probably stay closed from the main still being fairly hot. If they don't open back up they don't work. Vents should be at the end of the main not in the middle.

dbailey

As far as venting a rule of thumb on this board is 1 Gorton #2 vent for every 20' of 2" main. So if your mains are 2" that would be at least 2 per main. If you wanted to use #1 multiply that by 3. As long as the pressure is kept low spitting shouldn't be an issue. This was stated by KC_ Jones . My mains are length 46' and 47' . Is this meaning I should have two on the end of each of my mains ?

Fred

dbailey said:

As far as venting a rule of thumb on this board is 1 Gorton #2 vent for every 20' of 2" main. So if your mains are 2" that would be at least 2 per main. If you wanted to use #1 multiply that by 3. As long as the pressure is kept low spitting shouldn't be an issue. This was stated by KC_ Jones . My mains are length 46' and 47' . Is this meaning I should have two on the end of each of my mains ?

Yes, they should both be at the end of the Mains. You can build an antler or use Tee's to put them on the same opening in the main as long as that opening is 1/2" minimum (for 2 Gorton #2's)

dbailey

When you mention half inch opening are you referring to at least a half inch fitting that fits on the end of the mains ?

Fred

Yes, the opening that you mount the vents to needs to be large enough to allow the air through it at a suffecient rate to at least meet the vent(s) capacity. 1/2" is suffecient for 2 Gorton#2's. If your opening is 3/4 or better, that's fine. The vents will only vent up to their capacity at any given pressure.