Gorton Vents #1 or #2

dbailey

Hello to all , I have a question about Gorton steam vents for my mains I have two steam mains length 46' and 47' with
Hoffman's No 75, 1/2" x 3/4" Straight Steam Main Air Valve installed and just put them on 5 may 6 years ago worked fine for those year's but just had a new Weil McClain steam boiler EGH 105 which replaced a EGH 95 installed about a month ago since the previous owner was not proactive at all in maintaining the previous system it got to the point this fall would not even hold water to fire it up. The older boiler was installed in 1997 I have tried boiling them in vinegar to clean out any gunk but they still do not want to close completely until I tap on the side of them so I am loosing steam for no reason. I have read all I can find on these ( Gorton's ) and would some one tell me if it would be the right choice for my system . If there is any other information needed please advise .

Dale

Mark N

Gorton 2's will work fine. Post some pictures. Why was a bigger boiler installed? Were the leaks found that caused the old boiler
to take on to much feed water?

dbailey

Thanks' Mark for the quick reply have some pic's on my phone just haven't transferred to my computer yet . The reason the boiler was leaking was due to the last two section's in the rear were separating and had been leaking for quite some time the home set empty for a couple of years and some one drained the system correctly but was evidently leaking before that. When we bought the home had the original boiler installer god forbid look it over and said that since it was leaking a little but that was common for this to happen when they sit almost empty and after running for awhile the leak should stop and we would be fine, well for awhile we were,started leaking again 2 or 3 years ago and have been nursing it since, the old one that is, didn't realize how bad the boiler was myself until I took the panel off the side below the draft hood ! Total rust and the back section rod was completely rusted into allowing the back two sections to separate. In answer to your bigger boiler install Weil McClain dropped the heating spec's on the EGH 95 so our new and greatly appreciated plumber/ boiler installer whom I would recommend to anyone jumped up to the next level with minimal heating spec's in the old system and the EGH 105 just 5,000 btu in heating but about the same in everything else . If you would like to see the difference in spec's between the two can post them here, or go to Weil McClain web site .
I hear ya on the Gorton's ( No #2's ) but I have heard they have a tendency to spit and carry on at times if your system goes above 1.5 psi in generated steam through the mains the system is a two pipe . When I get a chance will put up a few picture's . Home was built in 1925 and I am a builder/restorer by trade 30 years the house is a Colonial Revival and is designed after the Wright Brothers museum here in Dayton, Ohio . Just not as big ! Thank GOD ! 2700sqft

KC_Jones

If you are worried about a Gorton spitting above 1.5 PSI, what you should really be worried about is running above 1.5PSI which you really shouldn't be especially on a 2 pipe system. Another thing did the installer do a full EDR calculation on your system? An EG105 seems huge for a 2700 sq ft house. There are people on here with a boiler that size for a 5000 sq ft house. If you are over sized that would contribute to building pressure in the system as would inadequate venting.

Mark N

Does your pressure get above 1.5PSI? Thats not good, most vents will leak under those conditions. Most likely the reason that the old boiler rusted out was that it took on too much feed water. Is there an auto feeder on this boiler? Does it have a water meter? Your boiler does seem quite large for the size of your home. A steam boiler is sized by the EDR of the installed radiators, not the size of the old boiler. There is no guarantee it was properly sized.

dbailey

Why does everyone here want to drill me on this issue ? Yes an EDR was performed and no the Boiler is not to big for our home ! We have seventeen radiators and 27 windows which at the present time most are single pane attic in the home is not insulated yet walls have blown in insulation which I believe was done back in 1979 and that means time for a recheck and more than likely will be reinsulating again. Boiler runs fine heat's faster than the other and all rooms have a even heat from the basement all the way to the third floor ! I know exactly why the old boiler failed and it was not because it rusted out . It did not rust out . The original installer did not do his job properly on the install not only that the previous owners so miss managed and more than likely cared less about the system as connecting rods do not rust completely into in the short time my wife and I have been here (we moved in the home in 2007) make up water would have never come into play if the owners would have been a little more proactive . Since the install of this system ( 1 month ) make up water has been ZERO ! Water level has been right on . I will say I'm no boiler man but I love this system and would not go to anything else . As far as pressure in the mains maybe 1.2 KC_Jones . Have drained the system twice since the install due to rusty water in the wet returns since it set dry since last heating season.
I have almost replaced all the wet returns also . Will probably finish that up this coming yr. The amount of steam I'm loosing through the Hoffman's is not affecting water make up at the present time but so as to say the steam that is being vented through the vents is minimal . I don't like the Idea of having to add make up water but there will always be some and the smaller the amount the better. I know make up water
( Oxygen ) destroys ones system along with the ph level which water ph here is right on . My neighbor across the street has a 4000 sq. ft. home and I do not know the exact size of his boiler although I have seen it and two of the EGH 105's would fit inside of his easily .
/weil-mclain.com/en/weil-mclain/pd-egh-commercial-gas-boiler/

Ideal for large homes . I would almost say that an almost three thousand square foot home is a little on the large size as the above brochure states. Not counting a full size basement.

dbailey

The last Image is where we are at on the restore and the first was the home in 1971 and the nasty looking thing is what the home looked like when we purchased it . I still have all the siding to replace with Hardie Board siding yet to go and as you can see several windows too !

neilc

nice looking house,
you know that's piped wrong though,
the system takeoff should not be between the 2 risers from the boiler.
and get a shot from the right side so we can see the Hartford loop, and condensate return.

KC_Jones

neilc said:

you know that's piped wrong though,
the system takeoff should not be between the 2 risers from the boiler.

Agreed.

Fred

I haven't commented on this string up to this point but, I don't think anyone is trying to "Drill" you. They are just trying to understand you system and offer good (actually great advise) along the way, based on their observations (The old, "More eyes, the Better" theory), even if it may be off subject for your specific question.
The concern about your boiler size is a reasonable one. Understanding your home is 3000 square feet, that boiler is rated at 977 net sq. ft. of Steam. I live in a 5,000 sq.ft. house, 3 floors plus a basement and my boiler is a Burnham, net. 866 sq ft.of steam and it is 10% to 15% over-sized. Sizing is all dependent on the amount of radiation throughout the structure which is the unknown in this string, except perhaps to you.

The pressure cut-out on my boiler is 12 ounces, which it rarely gets to, unless we have really cold weather here (this past week we hit wind chills of minus 30!) These guys know, we all kknow steam moves faster and is more effecient the lower the pressure and they are just trying to impart some real experience and knowledge. Forgive us all for being too eager to share what we've learned.
EDITED to correct typo's

dbailey

Ok guy's I understand I just felt as though with all the questions that did not relate to my question was throwing me off and really appreciate the knowledge expressed here and most of it if not all is above my little mind as I said before I'm no boiler man as I'm sure you guy's can tell . Neilc , since I'm piped wrong with the system take off where should the take off be located ? On the end to the right of both of the risers ?
The old EGH 95 system was piped the same way and was Installed by a fellow that was supposed to be a steam expert since he had been in business for 40+ yrs. I don't have a Vaporstat installed to help out with the system as I have heard they are quit beneficial. Fred when you mentioned pressure cut out-on your system I suppose I do not have any Idea where to check for that other than the pressure gauge on the boiler which never leaves 0 during a run .
Oh Fred how old is your home ? This new boiler will only run for about 20 to maybe thirty minutes at the most as I haven't really kept track of the amount of time it runs before the system has finally managed to heat the thermostat to the desired temp. What I have noticed is the home has a way more even heat on all floors than I had with the EGH 95.

Fred

That little gray box sticking up above the boiler, in the back is the Pressuretrol. It controls the Cut-in pressure and the Cut-out pressure. on the front of that box is a scale that says "Cut-in" It should be set to .5PSI (1/2 pound) (use the screw on top of the box to adjust the indicator on that scale). Inside that box (Take the screw off at the bottom middle on the front) in side there is a white wheel. It should be set at "1". That will give you a Cut-in of .5PSI and a Cut-out of 1.5PSI.
My House is 113 years old, built in 1902. It has 47 windows on the three floor, all original single pane, no storms (I don't like the lookks of Storms), 7 exterior doors, 4 on the first floor and 3 on the second leading out to balconies. It is triple brickbut no room for insulation in the exterior walls. Attic is insulated.

neilc

dbailey said:

Neilc , since I'm piped wrong with the system take off where should the take off be located ? On the end to the right of both of the risers ?

Yes, to the right of the right riser, between the right riser and the equalizer.
ideally 10 - 15 inches past that right riser,
there would be some repiping to do.
you might consider piping the right riser over to where the system takeoff is, and extending the takeoff to where the riser ties in now,
you would have to swap the Tees as I think they are differing pipe sizes(riser and takeoff),
if you're lucky and the takeoff and boiler riser are same size the you might get away with realigning the Tees by 1/4 turns on each,

or you're extending the header and boiler return, and condensate return.

and,
your Hartford loop,
it should be 2" below your normal water line (~center of sightglass, check the manual),
I can't tell for sure but,
the insulation bulge looks high on your first picture compared to your sightglass, and the pic is too far to the right on the second pic to see,

one more shot 45* between , , ,?

if you don't have it, you should look up a manual for that boiler for their piping spec.

Fred

dbailey, Are you in Dayton, Ohio, by any chance? In the Grafton Hill neighboorhood?

KC_Jones

I think the OP stated they had 2 mains, which if true means there should actually be 2 take offs from the header not 1. I am guessing that single take off goes up into a tee...if so that isn't correct either. The reason I mentioned about boiler size is because if you are over sized it makes venting much more critical than if your boiler is sized correctly. I wasn't trying to "beat you up" just trying to get more information to give you good input and advice. Do you know what the calculated EDR of your system is? As far as venting a rule of thumb on this board is 1 Gorton #2 vent for every 20' of 2" main. So if your mains are 2" that would be at least 2 per main. If you wanted to use #1 multiply that by 3. As long as the pressure is kept low spitting shouldn't be an issue. You might want to consider a good low pressure gauge 0-3PSI to see what pressure you are actually running at (if you don't have one already).

dbailey

Have several answers coming and several ? so Fred I'm in the old Dayton View or the Triangle actually right across from the triangle this area used to be considered the Oakwood of Dayton if you know anything about this area. I have some more pictures to up load also and Neilc are we looking at the boiler from the Weil-McClain side which I consider the front when you are stating where the takeoff should be located to the right of ? What harm having it piped this way could come to anything as the plumbing supply where the boiler was purchased at told my installer not that he id not know that the way the system is piped now was the correct way to pipe the system Pickrel Brothers here in Dayton and the gentlemen that told him has also been in the plumbing business for over 40 yrs. I remember the old original coal wood fired boiler was still
here also when we bought this home and (8 section) had a fun time removing it myself and it was as tall as me and it was also piped in this manner as was the Weil-McClain that we just removed to install the current new system. The risers piped up into a header on each end and then into a T in the center. I have attached some photos and the as you can see the Hartford Loop is 2" below the normal water line . I don't have the EDR of my system is but can get it . What kind of a low pressure gage would I purchase as far as brand ? All the cut in and cut out settings are right on too in the pressure box and on the out side .

I do have the manual and I do see that the piping in the manual shows exactly what you guys are stating here I also called my installer and mentioned to him that I was being told that the system is piped wrong . So at the present I'm waiting on my mind to tell me on how to handle this situation and the Idea of two separate take offs is a little hard for me to grasp on this installation as there never was to separate take offs from the previous boiler or the old coal wood fired boiler . Who do I go with here !

Fred

@dbailey Of course I know the Triangle, I'm in Historic Dayton View, I'm the large Buff colored Brick house with the 2 story porch columns on Superior, right behind where McCallester's Art Supply use to be. My son is on Cornell, My sister/brother-in Law are on Alameda and a Nephew on Mount Vernon in the Mount Vernon Neighborhood. It goes without saying that this truely is a smallworld!

Fred

Well, looking at these pictures, the big issue is the fact that that riser going up from your Header goes into what is caalled a Bull Head tee, meaning the Tee goes out both sides rather than out the top and out one side. Steam slams against the top of that Tee the way it is set up. These guys are telling you right. The mains should have dropped down into the Header individually for even distribution and less resistance. In essence, they should have installed two Tee' in the header, like the one they did install and then they should have dropped eeach of those mains down into those tee's.
As far as having the Mains tied in between the boiler risers, they should have been installed after the boiler risers and before the equalizer. I know they use to put them in between but they also use to use very large headers and put that header very close to the basement ceiling and back then, when the boilers were coal fired, they just kind of simmered all day, building no pressure, rather than heat up like today's boilers. All of which kept the steam dry and reduced the velocity.
I say I know they use to do it that way because my mains are in between my risers as well and the mains and Header on the system are original to the house so the header is a 4" header up 38 to 40 inches above the water line. I also have two Mains but both of my mains are dropped into the header as they should be and I acctually believe my system runs as effeciently and quietly as it does is because each main drops down into the header, minimizing the amount of steam that collides coming from each direction.
My boiler is a 32 year old Burnham and when it dies (if it dies before I do) I will have the header corrected just so that it is as it should be but it isn't posing a problem for me at this point.
One other observation, the riser out of the boiler on the right should have an elbow on top of it and turn into the header (can be corrected if you have the Header reconfigured) Elbows at each riser out of the boiler act as swing joints and help keep stress off on the boiler sections as the boiler/piping expand and contract.
EDITED: To add swing joint comment.

KC_Jones

Just to reiterate what Fred has said, you basically can't use the coal boiler piping as an example of how to pipe the gas boiler. It's a gas boiler not a coal boiler so it's a new system and the whole system needs to be looked at when this change is made. It sounds like the previous installer didn't do this and the next one just followed what the previous one did. Also this is probably why you don't have enough main venting, coal didn't need as much because the fire burned long and low all day long gently making steam and heating the house. With oil and gas heating you make a bunch of steam at a high rate to heat the house on the demand of the thermostat which requires adjustments to the whole system to work properly. As far as gauges I bought from this company, nice to deal with and fast. It is generally recommended to go with a 0-3 PSI though many of us buy lower than that, it depends what you want.
http://www.valworx.com/category/low-pressure-gauges-25-lower-mount

dbailey

Fred, KC Jones, Neilc, Mark N, I want to thank you guy's truly for all you have taught me here and have passed all this info on to my installer and he called me today and has advised me he did wrong by following someone else's advice and has agreed to come back and make it right and rebuild the header to the correct spec's ! At no charge to be all .

(As far as having the Mains tied in between the boiler risers, they should have been installed after the boiler risers and before the equalizer.)

Could some one be a little more clear on this and what distance should be between the Main and the first riser ? I just can not for some reason get a mental picture of this header in my mind . Could someone explain it to me as standing in front of the logo Weil-McLain on the side of the boiler ?

You guy's are GREAT !

Fred glad to be a neighbor and consider me some one who you can count as being very grateful for the advice . KC Jones the system seems to vent fine it's just that the two Hoffman's on the mains do not want to close all the way unless I tap on them during the initial steaming process . Some steam will start to bleed out no spitting or anything as such but the vent's does not want to close . Like there is not enough steam pressure to close them all the way .

KC_Jones

Out of curiosity have you timed the mains at all? Roughly the time from header hot to end of main hot? With adequate venting this should only take a couple minutes or so. With inadequate venting it can take a lot longer. Just wanted to mention it because we often see people posting on here saying everything works fine until we mention how fast it could be. All of us are happy to help when we see a need. A lot of us were once were you are now, many worse. Be thankful you have a good installer! You can find many horror stories on this website of people having problems and the installer simply walks away from them. Here is a link to a recent install of a smaller version of your boiler. Check out the pics for a good visual on the piping. This one was actually done as a drop header, but in concept this is similar to what you want yours to look like.
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/153108/job-completed#latest

Fred

@dBailey, I am so Glad things fell into place and that you have a stand up installer who will make it right.
Standing on the side f the boiler, boiler the riser furthest away from the equalizer pipe is good. The Boiler riser closest to the equalizer should run parallel to the long side of the boiler over to where the Main Riser is and elbow over to tie into the header about where that Riser is to the Main, but it should be tee'd into the side of the Header. Each of the two Mains should then be elbow'd (or he can use 45's) over and individually tied into the top of the Header, one right next to the other, whatever nipple he wants to use in the Header between them, then he should allow about 15 inches after the last riser (to the Main) More than 15 inches is fine, and build his equalizer, like he has it now is fine. Make sure he pitches the Header to give you a slight slope towards the equalizer.

Of Course, there is the option of a drop Header, which is best but your installer won't likely do that for free. It entails doing what I outlined above but putting another elbow on where the Boiler Riser meets the Header, and dropping down about 12 inches with a nipple on each boiler riser and then attaching the Header. This option makes for really dry steam but your riser is high enough that you won't have a problem. Just make sure he keeps the Header up as high as he caan go (if you don't use a drop header).
I'd be glad to stop by and take a quick look with you if you have questions.

vaporvac

That's great he's willing to make it right. Usually it's a nightmare if this site is any indication.
Did you ever post your edr? I don't mean to harp on this, but my house is about three times as large and has 1466 edr which is about half again as large as your boiler's rating. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around it. As I'm sure you know, that's the only factor in sizing a boiler; insulation, windows, sealing are completely irrelevant in an existing system. We can help you figure that out if that's a problem. It's not the end of the world it it's too large, (just too bad in a new install), as burners can be down-fired or staged, so it's something you might want to consider figuring out.
I'm sure you get even heat, but over-sizing won't necessarily affect that. You'll see the result in your gas bill every month and the wear and tear on the system due to short cycling. Colleen

dbailey

vaporvac, I seem to have miss placed the edr or the wife has toss it with some of her junk any way will have to do another . What is down-fired ? I assume staged is to turn off some of the burners with I suppose some sort of a plug in place of the gas orifice. Your home is 8,000 sq. ft. ? Three times 2700 = 8100 .
I knew the installer would re-do the piping as this guy is a great individual and a excellent personality . I'll probably give him some more things to do while he is here as I still have one more wet return pipe to replace and installing two more steam vents one more in each of the mains. How would a person install another vent in the main if there is nothing but solid pipe ? Take out a section of the main ? Cut the pipe in the correct location for the vent and install a piece of pipe that will accept the fitting for the vent ? Which would mean having to thread the cut main pipe to accept the pipe with the fitting ?
Oh Fred will give you a call or send you an email in advance a day or two ahead before the installer comes . I'm unsure at the moment when this is all going to take place as far as me being home and all . I like being home when he is going to be working on the piping .

KC JONES , Haven't timed the mains yet but first chance I get will do . I really appreciate the concern and information on this forum more than you guy's will ever know .

What are the green valves for on the mains ?
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78

I was wondering won't the steam being generated up from the boiler into the header up into the first main take on more steam before it gets to the second main and not really be maybe a balanced flow of steam between the two ?

Fred

Oh Fred will give you a call or send you an email in advance a day or two ahead before the installer comes . I'm unsure at the moment when this is all going to take place as far as me being home and all . I like being home when he is going to be working on the piping .
I was wondering won't the steam being generated up from the boiler into the header up into the first main take on more steam before it gets to the second main and not really be maybe a balanced flow of steam between the two ?
I will send you an email with my cell phone number. We can arrange a time to meet.
The answer to your second question is no. Steam will take the path of least resistance and that's why having good venting atb the end of each main is so important. It allows the mains to heaat and accept the amount of steam they can accommodate. once they are filled, then the next path of least resistance becomes the radiators with their open vents. if the venting is adequate, both mains should fill at about the same time and steam should get to each radiator at about the same time

KC_Jones

The green valves are king valves. This allows for isolation of the boiler should a pressurized blow down be needed. Basically isolate just the boiler from the piping (requires hartford loop valve that I also have) and set the pressuretrol to say 10PSI and once you hit that open up the lowest valve on the boiler and blow all the accumulated crud out. Sort of a steam boiler steam cleaning if you will. Yes the steam will start down the first main slightly sooner than the second main, but with proper venting you are talking about seconds of difference so it really doesn't matter. That being said when I redid my boiler I hooked the "colder" part of the house to the header first....just because.

dbailey

Could someone please give me another EDR sizing chart ? I have one from UTICA and Columbia . I will keep searching myself I just thought you guy's might have a close to very accurate one here.

KC_Jones

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1363124#Comment_1363124

BobC posted a pdf of one from Burnham in the above thread. 5 posts from the bottom. Here is a link to one I have used before also.
http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/other-downloads/boiler_replacement_guide.pdf

dbailey

Thanks KC_Jones;
I looked on there web site but couldn't come up with it. I have a round about figure on my EDR 800 for the Radiators . It seems as though some of the Radiation tables are somewhat different . I would still like to know what is and how to down-fired and staged my burner's . Boiler is 977 sq.ft.

Fred

Hi dbailey. The down firing should be done by a technician. The burner will need to be tuned and the flue gases checked.
The staging will require a change out of the gas valve to a 2 stage gas valve and the addition of 2 vaporstats. Essentially that will allow yoour boiler to fire at it's normal rate until the pressure gets to a certian level and then it steps down to a lower flame to slow a pressre rise or maintain your desired pressure until the thermostat is satisfied. The staging option gives you the best flexibility and effeciency but the down firing is less costly.

dbailey

I hear ya Fred ,
vaporvac,
I have two EDR's for my radiators with two different figures ;
781.13 and 788.39
boiler / Net I=B=R Ratings: Steam (Sq. Ft.) 977
DOE Heating Capacity (MBH) 312
Net I=B=R Ratings: Steam (MBH) 234
the EGH - 95 which is what was in place /
Net I=B=R Ratings: Steam (Sq. Ft.) 868

I have read all across this great big internet that Radiation Tables for Sizing radiators has several other factors involved and that the tables would not be right on but probably close .
Oh yeah Fred would the two vaporstats attach to the boiler ?

Location and Mounting When used with steam boilers, always mount the controller above the water line in the boiler. A steam trap (siphon loop) must always be connected between the controller and the boiler (see Fig. 2) to prevent boiler scale and corrosive vapors from attacking the diaphragm. The controller can be mounted (1) alongside the pressure gauge, (2) in a fitting on the boiler provided by the manufacturer, (3) at a remote location in case of excessive vibration, or (4) in a special mounting on a low water cutoff. Make all pipe connections in accordance with approved standards. When making pipe connections, use pipe compound sparingly to seal the joints. Excess pipe compound may clog the small hole in the fitting and prevent the controller from operating properly. To avoid leaks and damage to the case, use a parallel jaw wrench on the controller hexagonal fitting. Do not tighten the controller by hand by holding the case.

Fred

dbailey, the vaporstats would replace your Pressuretrol. They function like the Pressuretrol but are more refined, control pressure in ounces rather than pounds/half pound increments. Both could be mounted on a Tee and use the pigtail your Pressuretrol is currently mounted on or, if you have an additional tapping on the boiler, they could be mounted seperately. One would make for the high stage of the gas valve and break at a defined pressure and the other would make at the break pressure of the first unit, for the lower burn rate and break at the defined pressure for it.

KC_Jones

Going from that EDR calculation you probably could have actually installed an EGH-85 rated for 760. It would have been a hair under size, but so close I think it would have been fine. The EGH-95 for sure would have been fine and the 105 that you have is definitely too much. I would definitely explore a 2 stage gas valve set up or just down firing. Here is a picture of the vaporstat setup I am using for my 2 stage gas valve just to give you an idea. Also a picture of the 2 stage valve I went with.

Fred

@KC_jones, you got a 2 stage gas valve! I am so envious! You sized your boiler so well, does it stage frequently or just on very cold days with long boiler run times?

KC_Jones

Honestly Fred it doesn't stage at all right now. I do not have any insulation on the pipes yet though. I am ordering my insulation tonight so once I get that on I anticipate the system to act completely different. I will miss my toasty workshop, but I don't need to heat that space 24/7 so the pipes are getting insulated. I have forced it into low fire a couple times just to test the vaporstat, but other than that not enough pressure to get into low fire. If after insulating it still doesn't work I will either work on a different control or just abandon it altogether. Have to see what I can do.

vaporvac

Just be sure to keep the pressuretrol IN ADDITION to the Vsats. It's needed by code. Both @Jamie Hall‌ and I have our low pressure gauges on our headers and @ChrisJ‌ has eliminated the pigtail with his innovative design..going commando. However, for an already installed system, hooking them to the boiler is probably easiest.

@KC_Jones‌ , does your boiler not trip to low fire because it's so cold? Shouldn't it always do that after you heat all the pipes and rads and no longer need the pick-up factor. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the two-stage gas valve. My staging is done through twinning the boilers. I'd have loved staged burners as well, but in the end, the two differently fired boilers seem to be working well enough.

Fred

Just be sure to keep the pressuretrol IN ADDITION to the Vsats. It's needed by code.
Hi Vaporvac, Pressuretrol isn't required by code if you have a Vaporstat but most of us keep it as an added safety device. With 2 vaporstats, I'm not sure if it is necessary. However, the worthless 0-30 PSI gauge is required by code.

dbailey

But you know what KC_Jones heating bill has seen no change this year compared to last year . As a matter of fact $30.00 lower compared to this time last year.

ChrisJ

dbailey said:

But you know what KC_Jones heating bill has seen no change this year compared to last year . As a matter of fact $30.00 lower compared to this time last year.

You cannot go by this time last year, or any other year.
You must compare how much fuel you used compared to the outdoor temperature. This is done using heating degree days.

Unfortunately I'm drawing a blank right now on how to do it. I recall there being a chart that you can download in Excel format and then there's a simple formula for calculating it and comparing different months etc.

Perhaps someone else can remind me how to do it? I did it a few times last year to see what savings the EcoSteam was providing and I recall it was around 13% without doing a setback.

Fred

dbailey is here in Dayton, right around the corner from me. Our gas provider shows the average daily temp for the current month, the average daily temp for the same month a year ago, the gas cost per unit, the number of units used and the number of billing days in each of those periods. I would think the info is there to do the calculations, even though it doesn't factor in wind chills, it should be a very good indicator. One would also have to assume other gas appliances were used relatively the same during those periods, but that is relatively normalized unless there was a known deviation.
If for some reason, it isn't on the bill, a call to them will get that info. We can get a 12 month usage history on request. i would assume most utilities have to provide something similaar (maybe only on request but it should be available)
EDIT: Of course it assumes the thermostat was set similarly during those periods ???

Captain Who

I'd say that you'd calculate the heating units used per degree days for each of the two periods of time that you want to compare, where the degree days is the sum of all the individual degree days for that period. So to get the % improvement in efficiency for Period 2 vs Period 1, you'd calc: 100% x ((Heating units period 1/ degree days period 1) - (Heating units period 2/degree days period 2) / (Heating units period 1 / degree days period 1))