Well Tank Piping...

john p_2

Need to install a new well tank and see some installations have a filter before the tank and thinking I will do the same. I do have a large whole house filter just before my water softener too....overkill or not?

SWEI

What kind of water quality issues do you have? Most wells will benefit from a sediment filter, so we put a low restriction filter in the line before it hits the pressure tank. Depending on the water source, that might have anywhere from a 75µ down to a 20µ element. For larger systems or really silty wells, it might be a backflushable media filter.

If you have chemistry issues (pH, iron, sulfur, etc.) you should consider consulting a water treatment professional.

rick in Alaska

You can only do the filter before the tank if the pressure switch is not on the tank. The reason for this is if the filter plugs up, the pressure switch will stay open and the pump will continue to run. I have been told, but am not sure, but the pump can deliver enough pressure to "blow up" the filter.
Move the pressure switch to a location before the new filter if you decide to go that way.
Rick

icesailor

rick in Alaska said:

You can only do the filter before the tank if the pressure switch is not on the tank. The reason for this is if the filter plugs up, the pressure switch will stay open and the pump will continue to run. I have been told, but am not sure, but the pump can deliver enough pressure to "blow up" the filter.
Move the pressure switch to a location before the new filter if you decide to go that way.
Rick

You should never pump into a filter system first but should always go into a pressure tank with the pressure switch located before the house valve. Water pumps can not "Dead Head" without the risk of serious damage to the pumps. Submersible pumps are particularly susceptible. Closed system heating circulator pumps are pumps, just like water well pumps in open system potable water systems. The main difference being that the heating pump only needs to overcome the resistance of the system piping to generate enough head pressure whereas the well pump has to generate enough pressure to "push" the water up to ground level and then to a high enough elevation to provide enough usable pressure at the highest faucet in a potable water system. If you have a well that has a static water level of 50' below the ground, it needs to develop enough pressure to "push" the water UP 50' for the water to just flow over the top of the pipe with no pressure. Then, it needs more pressure to raise the level/pressure to a higher level to just get to the faucet. Higher to get more pressure. 1# PSI Gauge will support a column of water 2.31' high. So at the ground level, it the pressure is at 1#, and there was a glass pipe at the well head, rising vertically, the water would be 2.31' high. Raise the pressure by 10# and the water rises to 23.10' in the glass pipe. But a foot of water only exerts .434 PSI Gauge. So, the water at the top of the casing is actually exerting 21.7 PSIG at the top of the submersible pump in the well. If the water is raised in the pipe to 100', the total head pressure on the pump becomes 65.1# PSI Gauge. Not enough for a 2 story house with a bathroom on the second floor. Well pumps have to be able to deliver water over a higher pressure range that heating pumps.

Do NOT ever connect any restrictive devices before a well pressure tank. Serious things can happen. There is also a 75# pressure relief valve that must be installed to protect the tank and system. Well tanks are rated with a maximum of 75# PSIG working pressure.

Some of us have seen well pressure tanks that exploded that didn't have pressure relief valves installed.

Any installation manual for any water treatment system will always show the filtering AFTER the pressure tank. There's a reason for that.

SWEI

Good point on the dead-heading, but sand in the pressure tank is not fun. Blow-off valve always before the filter.

Mark Eatherton

Sand separators like Alpha Laval work great with minimal pressure drop, and can be set up for auto blow down if demand warrants.

Jamie Hall

Another minor point -- place the pressure switch very close to the pressure tanks. You can get some very interesting water hammer and other effects if there is a significant distance!

Mark Eatherton

Lakos separators as well…

http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/centrifugal-separators.html

icesailor

They sell a "Tank Cross" fitting that has all the tapped ports already in place. All pressure tanks for wells are designed to accept them. In the side, there are two tapped ports. One for the drain, and the other for the pressure relief valve. On the top of the fitting, there are two tapped 1/4" openings. One for the pressure switch of one's choice, the other for a pressure gauge. The threading for the tee is 1" FPT on the inside and 1 1/4" on the outside on the run. A union type fitting on the branch so you can disconnect the tank from the fitting by undoing a union nut.

If you have a pump that will pump water up from 500' below the ground, but it is only 30' to water, and you install a ball valve before the tank, and leave it closed, you will develop enough pressure to blow the pipe apart.

You think its bad to over pump heating systems? Wait until you see what happens when you way oversize and over pump a water well pump for an application.

john p_2

Thanks Mark,
I decided not to go with a filter before the tank but instead will pipe in a strainer with a blow down valve. Wish I had seen your post about the sand eliminators sooner. I am installing an Amtrol WX1-250 that I plan to customize somewhat - plan to raise it about 18" from FF so that the LED display is just about eyelevel. I will post pics as soon as it is completed on Sunday.

RobG

18" from the finished floor is eye level for you? I'm sorry about your disability.

john p_2

Pics of the finished product...

icesailor

Where does the well connect to the tank? It isn't on the bottom. So, where is it?

Rich_49

Ice , you are a dinosaur aren't you ?
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellx1/90130006_03_11_WellX1_IO.pdf

icesailor

Yeah. Those are the new ones for people who can't read TFI.

They designed those to sell in Home Depot and Lowes.

Kind of like that class of people that replace a single pipe steam boiler with a hot water boiler and wonder where all the pipes go and how do you fill it.

They brought those in a couple of years before I left. They had one by the door. I think the only ones sold were to some homeowners. The pump companies all want to go to on demand pumps. More money to install, more money to replace when they break. And you don't need to know much to install one. How it works is another story. Something else that is expensive when it breaks. And most tanks croak before 10 years. Depending on the water.

The wise word used to be KISS. Keep It Simple, (but don't be) Stupid.

The new wise word is KID. Keep It Difficult.

In my over 40 years of working on pumps, after tank failures, the biggest problem was with the pressure switch being occluded by rust plaque and you had to clean out the tube. All that money to get a red LED display. There's a $-15.00 analog gauge doing the same thing 12" away. In fact,, there's two of them.

Oh, and by the way, Dinosaurs like me learned to leave the second check off the system and rely on the one on the pump. Because when and if the line goes negative, and there is any kind of water leak in the top, air gets in and you get air spewing out of the faucet. Sort of like green fresh sweet corn in the summer.

john p_2

Ice,
TFI ? Maybe TPI? The water comes into the house where that blob of spray foam is DBO (done by others) as it was there when I bought the house.
With all due respect Ice, I never liked the idea of doing any kind of service to these well tanks with my achy knees on some cold concrete floor and to me small price to pay for convenience & accessibility. In addition to the base that comes with the tank to raise it off the floor I raised it with the blocks for my personal preference. I'm a little embarrassed as I would have preferred to pour a concrete pad but timing didn't allow for it.
The well is 480' deep. The first well went dry @ 120' deep in 09.

icesailor

First of all, the blocks are fine. I've put many a tank on blocks. Especially in dirt crawl spaces. In my last house, they were on a big platform of blocks so the neutralizing filter could sit at the same level. There's nothing wrong with that Extrol tank.

In my former world of reliability and genetic cheap, the basic tank with a tank cross, drain, pressure relief valve, 0=100# gauge and a 40-60# PS104, or the choice of that high tech, high maintenance tank, the customer, given the choice, would take the basic model. At least that was always my experience.

Some wells are "Airey". Feeding in the top, makes it go into the house system. How do you get it out? At least going in the bottom, the air will be absorbed if it isn't too much. And if you have a leaking pitless adapter, the water will drain out and let air in.

For some of us. we see something new, were not anti-new, but our first thoughts are How is this new thing going to make my life miserable and how do I fix it. Many designers have never had to fix their bad dreams. Ask any auto mechanic. Try replacing the right hand side valve cover gasket on a Ford E150 van with a V-6 or V-8 engine. You have to raise the body off the frame to do it. Experienced Ford dealers can do it in under 4 hours.

john p_2

Ice,
Your comments/thoughts are well appreciated here...

RobG

I have always wished they would make the tank tee a little longer with a union on the tee so you could just turn off the water, drain the tank, disconnect the union and pull the old tank and reinstall. It would make replacement so much easier.

MikeG

Rob
Check out the dean bennett company. I couldn't find a long cross tee with union locally. They have what you need. I installed my tank a year and a half ago temporariy while I was working on my utility room floor I had to unhook it and move it to it's permanent location. Drain, unhook the union lift the tank reinstall. I have a check valve between the tank and supply from the well so not a problem.
http://www.deanbennett.com/tank-fittings.htm

john p_2

Rob, Can you post a pic of your tank, I'd love to see it

RobG

MikeG said:

Rob
Check out the dean bennett company. I couldn't find a long cross tee with union locally. They have what you need. I installed my tank a year and a half ago temporariy while I was working on my utility room floor I had to unhook it and move it to it's permanent location. Drain, unhook the union lift the tank reinstall. I have a check valve between the tank and supply from the well so not a problem.
http://www.deanbennett.com/tank-fittings.htm

Looks like a nice product. I wish they were standard on all installs. It would save the customer allot on labor for tank replacement. I'll have order a couple and see how they work out. It would be an easy up-sell.

@jonh p there is nothing special about my tank installation, I was just wishing out loud about a fitting that I did not know existed until today.

icesailor

RobG said:

I have always wished they would make the tank tee a little longer with a union on the tee so you could just turn off the water, drain the tank, disconnect the union and pull the old tank and reinstall. It would make replacement so much easier.

The newer Amtrol tanks come with the inlet fitting just back from the edge of the inside. They sell a Tank Cross with the Union as the starting fitting. If you replace an old tank, you will have to change the tank cross anyway.

I think it is this one. Its hard to see the union behind everything. Its all we used on Amtrol's.

http://www.water-softeners-filters.com/tfp2-rv-1-wellmate-well-switch-tank-fitting-package-with-relief-valve.php?gclid=CIKklZDLy8MCFSho7AoduWgAow