gurgling in riser

neilc

and for all that,,,
maybe what Chris says,
if you pulled that other rad,
is it maybe just the riser vibrating in the wall due to some loss of tensions(mechanical) from the other rad?

or a gurgling hammer?

neilc

U tube vid,
and picture of rad.

gramcynyc

I pretty much ruled out the dead piece to old rad being the issue. its quiet with no vibrations and nothing changed when I pulled it up to make sure it pitched down to the riser. removed a similarly placed rad in my apartment one floor below 17 years ago.

putting a vent on that capped off tail parallel to the radiator may be worth looking into.....

gramcynyc

ear plugs seem to be the best option. now that the volume of noise is reduced, they worked great for a full night's sleep for the first time this winter

neilc

go on,
try turning that pressuretrol down to 1.5 cut out,
go on, try it.

gcp13

rattling sounds are usually the disc on the radiator valve if its loose. if still rattling after new one was installed the disc nut may be loose, i have had to tighten or pinch the edge of the disc so as to not rattle when steam hits it,and make sure its open all the way
could the sound be coming from the radiator below?

gramcynyc

wow...I hadn't thought of the new valve as being the culprit.

gramcynyc

Steam riser symphony: http://youtu.be/FsgyieeqwMo

youtube was was the only way I could get the file sent from my phone.

so does it sound like disc rattle? or steam/water mix?

gramcynyc

great! now I have to spend the day figuring out how to un=privatize the video in addition to fixing the rattle...lol

gramcynyc

youtu.be/FsgyieeqwMo

neilc

did you click on the blue "Publish" button upper right ?

gramcynyc

ok...its unlocked.

gramcynyc

so does it sound like disc rattle? or steam/water mix?

neilc

Do you hear that in the basement also ?
or just in your apartment ?
is it sounding upstairs(5th)?

my take?
(I'm no expert, wait for other replies)
steam collapsing in the riser as it passes condensation returning,
insulate the riser (?)

and check that rad valve disc,

gramcynyc

thanks neil....I do not hear it in the basement.

I don't have access to the apartment below as they are away this weekend. It does not sound as loud in the upstairs apartment with the radiator...it sounds like its below in the riser not in the radiator.

waiting on more replies to the sound bite

waiting for a friend to come help me out taking apart the inflow valve as you suggested

neilc

while you're down there turning the boiler off,
dial that pressuretrol down that 1/2 #

gramcynyc

I don't know who puts more pressure on me you or my boiler....just done

gramcynyc

down to 1.5psi now. the rattle started much later into the cycle but not gone. not continuous, and not as loud. still only on this riser (not the other three)

nicholas bonham-carter

It's noisy all right!
I would put a low pressure 0-3 psi gauge, next to the pressuretrol, to verify the exact pressure. Pressuretrols are notoriously inaccurate, and when turned down low, can lose the linkage between the diaphragm and the switch. Then there is no limit to the pressure, especially if your boiler is oversized with bad main venting. Your 5 storeys could be heated with 6 ounces, except during a recovery from setback.
Add up the EDR of all your radiators, and compare it to the rating plate of the boiler, (steam square feet). If you have a power burner, or even an atmospheric, you can down fire it a bit to match it better to the load. Your boiker may already have a two-stage burner which was never hooked up, so have a look.--NBC

neilc

if you close that supply (inflow) valve, or flip the vent so that rad is dead (out of the picture),
what happens ?
anything else on that riser ?

neilc said:

while you're down there turning the boiler off,

and I was really trying to remind you to disable the boiler before taking that valve apart, but you know that , , ,
don't ask me why I remind me of this, cycles happen.

gramcynyc

its true that my gauge is uselessly over sized but its never gone over 4. I'll change that today. I'll never be able to do all the calculations even if I did have access to all the floors. I removed the radiators in my apartment 17 years ago and installed finned sticks which I never open. The heat from the risers are plenty to heat my apartment and probably the ones below. In addition there are no radiators on the two risers that run up through the bathrooms.
so are we on the right tack by dialing back the pressure and steam? disreguard the inflow valve and vent valve aspect?

gramcynyc

I haven't flipped the new vent but have closed the inflow valve which avoids any noise all together.

neilc

gramcynyc said:

I haven't flipped the new vent but have closed the inflow valve which avoids any noise all together.

, , , so the problem is there, that rad and valve.
slower rad vent, or that valve,
where's that picture ?

Abracadabra

That sounds like a valve disc rattle to me. Check other valves attached to that riser. Sounds travels well on pipe.

If you flip the radiator vent on a radiator, and the noise stops, you know you've found the valve that's creating the problem.

gramcynyc

ok. here's that pic of offending rad
I've just rotated the vent down to see what happens on next cycle

gramcynyc

after having inverted the vent, it still made noise downstairs. I put my ear to the inflow valve and it did not seem o be the cause of the noise.

Fred

gramcynyc said:

ok...it still rattles but much less loud this time

Make sure the pitch is towards the inlet valve you installed. Is it rattling (Which is an indication that the valve disc inside the valve may have come loose) or is it gurgling (indicating water is boiling as the steam hits it) ?
If it is gurglingIt is still possible the horizontal pipe under the floor lost its pitch. Raise the end of the radiator the inlet is on and then repitch it towards the inlet.

If it is rattling, my guess is that when you took the other radiator out (and it was attached to this same riser) when steam flows, it vibrates the riser or that other radiator pipe up against the floor joist. When it comes back on, hold that other pipe that you capped and see if the noise stops.

gramcynyc

settings....please understand that I am a complete novice to all this. Though I have been turning on the system for 17 years, this is the first year with all the noise issues which I attributed to the renovation in that apartment last year.

I've posted pictures of the pressuretrols and control panel for some advice. I've lowered the pressure on the left side pressuretrol (the one with 2 settings) to under 2psi and left the right side presssuretrol at 1. >>>Are these the correct settings?

control panel: the timer doesn't work so disregard that. I've traditionally just raised the "heat adjustment knob" as more heat was needed. there is no thermostat in the building just an outside element and inside element located on the base of the last riser furthest from the boiler (the offending riser). I've just now lowered the "heat adjustment" knob to 9 o'clock position and got no noise but only warm radiator...no surpride.

What would increasing the "indoor element" knob do for me?

gramcynyc

we've eliminated the dead horizontal feed to old radiator. I've lifted the nub and clamped it at the floor to a pitch that I'm sure is back to the riser. Besides...although I call it a rattle, its not a physical rattle. More like a tea kettle rattle. Have a listen a few posts back.

Fred

I would not change the indoor element if it is whaere it has always been. That second Pressuretrol tith only the Main scale on it must be a safety backup Pressuretrol. It is set at 10PSI, not 1. It's probably OK like that as a backup but I would turn it back to 5PSI. There is no reason to let it get to 10PSI before shutting the boiler down, should the other Pressuretrol fail.
2. Did you try holding the other pipe yet?

gramcynyc

the dead end pipe is cold and held up, yes. no physical vibrations. I put my ear to the inflow valve while it was warm and the noise sounded like it was far away (down in the riser).
Went down and heard it as usual. So I'm coming to the conclusion its a boiler setting issue. But after reducing the Heat adjustment knob down it may be too cool. I have no idea where to set that indoor element knob. My goal now is to have the least amount of steam to avoid the noise but have it run for a longer period of time.

(oh you are right...max limit is 10psi but the system is rated at 15 so I'm going to leave alone)

Fred

There may be something that has broken loose in/around the section of main where that riser comes off of. I think any further investigation should happen in the basement. Does that riser go through any other apartments below you? Could be something going on in that (those) apartments?
While the boiler is ratedd at 15PSI, most radiator vents and Main vents are rated at about 3PSI max operating pressure.

gcp13

Try to get the manual for heat timer
All those settings need to be set right
When the outside temp falls below setting the boiler should run until the sensor on the return( end of the steam line) reaches its temp setting, then the timer starts and runs on a set time (10 min,20min.ect.) based on outside temp.
Colder out longer cycle time

gramcynyc

thanks fred....have you been able to listen to the audio I posted?

I've just lowered the "heat adjustment" knob to "C" and increased the indoor element knob and seem to have redued the noise significantly

gcp13

Heat timer web site has manual for control that should help explain settings

Fred

I just listened to it. Was the end of the pipe open (where you took the other radiator out, when the new floor was being installed or any other work was being done? Do you have kids? I soulds to me like something relatively light may have been dropped or rolled into that open pipe and now when the steam comes on it lifts it and it bangs against the sides of the pipe.

nicholas bonham-carter

the boiler will stand 15 psi, but the various vents can become paperweights/Christmas tree ornaments at 3 psi.
it's hard for us to go much further, as we are not there.
might be time to call the local steam pro.--NBC

gramcynyc

hard to believe it was so simple .. but after lowering the pressure to under 2 psi and the "heat adjustment" knob I believe the problem has been solved! This cycle has had nearly no noise. I don't think I'll need ear plugs any more.

Thanks to all of you for your advice. This forum has been an invaluable source.

neilc

as you've gotten more involved in your system,
Do you have Dan's steam books ?
Tons, and I mean tons of info and theory in there,
well written, and engaging reading also.
get them, read them.
A Pocket Full of Steam,

We got Steam,
http://store.heatinghelp.com/we-got-steam-heat-p/141.htm
and
The Lost Art of Steam Heating,
http://store.heatinghelp.com/The-Lost-Art-of-Steam-Heating-p/101.htm

my bibles.

http://store.heatinghelp.com/super-deals-s/1825.htm

gramcynyc

Still don't know why lowering the heat adjustment which should shorten the "on" cycle would also diminish the noise. Perhaps it had more to do with lowering the pressure but that didn't help last night. I'm not saying its gone.... just not constant during the on cycle and not as loud.
I can live with it compared to what I'm sure would be an exorbitant fee for a long process of letting someone else figure it out.