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Raupanel Install

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sgall
sgall Member Posts: 37
in Radiant Heating
We are renovating our 1st floor (approx. 1300 sq. ft.). We are installing Raupanel. We have 9 loops and a 9 station Pro Balance manifold. My plumber was making boiler piping to manifold connections today. He has done many radiant installs but does not have any experience with Raupanel. Our question is: do we have to use the Rehau 3/8 R-20 connectors for the pex to manifold connections or is this a standard item where it wouldn't matter whose we use? The local supply house doesn't carry the Rehau connectors. thanks

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  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
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    For better or worse ended up getting Rehau by driving far.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
    edited January 2015
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    If it's any consolation, any R20 to pex connector would have worked. That's a standard European fitting that's used on manifolds and panel rads.
    Whoever sold you the manifold should have had the connectors available too.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    jamplumb
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
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    For some reason the local supply house carries Raupanel aluminum panels, furring strips, return bends and the 3/8 Raupex. They don't carry the Rehau manifolds, everloc connectors or the Rehau R-20 connectors. I am guessing I could of used a different manifold also but I figured keep it all one manufacturer so i bought the Pro Balance from an internet seller.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Ironman said:

    any R20 to pex connector would have worked. That's a standard European fitting that's used on manifolds and panel rads.

    They all work with SDR9 PEX. Do be careful mixing and matching EK-20 fitting pieces, though. Uponor's are slightly different than the others.
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
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    the plumber finished hooking everything up today and turned it on. It is working but the flow is very low about .35 gpm in each outlet. Even if I turn off 8 outlets and leave only 1 of the shorter ones going i barely get any improvement. You can feel the difference in temperature between the supply end and return standing on the panels barefoot. I had the plumber use our leftover Grundfos 15-58 on top speed but doesn't seem to be doing it. I had calculated that i would have 16' of head based on the longest circuit but I am thinking the piping from the boiler to the manifold is probably increasing this number since there are a bunch of elbows. Rehau recommends keeping your circuit lengths around 200' - 250' but I had 2 that were a bit longer.
    I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on Raupanel circuit lengths - is it a big no no to exceed 250'? and on circulators you have used with the system. thank you.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    You should have stayed at 180 - 200 ft. maximum with 3/8" pex. 250 - 300 max with 1/2".

    The manifold should not be piped directly off of the boiler. If you have a mod/con boiler it should be piped primary/secondary with some form of temp mixing if there are higher temp zones.

    If you have a cast iron boiler it still should have a separate circ and mixing valve feeding the radiant and probably some form of boiler temp protection.

    Could you post some pics of the boiler, its near piping and how the radiant manifold is connected? That way, we can better advise you.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
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    Ironman, I had originally planned to keep the circuits under 200' but I had the Rehau rep come by when I was laying the panels and he said under 250' was okay. I believe we are piped P/S - when the boiler was installed 3 years ago the plumber piped it exactly to the Alpine install diagram. Here are some pictures - took them running out the door this morning so quality might not be great. Radiant manifold is on the other side of the wall where the copper manifolds sit.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Are you sure that's 3/8" pex and not 1/2"?
    Why the bypass loop connecting the first station on the manifold together?
    What size is the circ and what's controlling it? I don't know why he turned the motor back into the wall. All he had to do is remove the four Allen screws and rotate the motor to get the direction of flow right with the motor facing outward.
    Is everything in the system one temp zone?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
    edited January 2015
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    Yes it is 3/8" oxygen barrier Raupex for the radiant zone (red) - the white pex is 1/2 for the two other zones . The bypass loop is there just in case - the zone is actually closed. We are waiting for some Everloc conncectors to arrive to splice up one final zone. The Circulator is a Grundfos 15-58 set to high speed (it was previously use for the 1st floor monoflow loop before the renovation began) - It is controlled by the 1st floor thermostat and the Taco SR504. There are 3 temperature zones one for each floor. First floor is the new radiant and the two upper floors are cast iron previously monoflow now home runs from the copper manifolds.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    What's the mixing device for the new radiant?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
    edited January 2015
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    Had the wife check it is Taco 5000-3
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    The long and short of your situation is this: what is the delta T between the supply and return of the floor? And, is it heating the area of the house it's installed in sufficiently during the coldest weather?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
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    I don't know exactly as the manifold return thermo broke off during the install - i am waiting for a replacement. But the space is not heating properly- some of the longer runs have cool panels on the return side. But last night was the coldest night I have seen here in years. Was -2 this morning and only 15 now but the space is up to about 60 degrees. I ran some rough numbers today and I think the pump is way undersized. Does this make sense: Heat loss of 27k , delta t of 10 and 8 loops gives flow rate of 5.4 gpm or .675 per loop. Longest loop is 267 feet which comes out to 20.88 feet of head for the pex. Head loss for the mixing valve would be about 10.35 at 5.4 gpm and the piping from the boiler loop to the manifold would be about 1.4 ft. head. All together head loss would be just under 33 ft. Seems high to me but I am new at this.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    I don't know the cv rating for the valve, but the other numbers add up.
    Try installing a high head circ. Either a Grundfos UPS29-99 or a Taco 009. Start with it on low speed and work your way higher til your get 10-12* delta T after the floor reaches equilibrium (using a 26-99, the 009 is one speed but should do the job).
    I don't know where these sales reps get the idea that you can use 250+ loops on 3/8" pex. 180' is the max for 3/8", unless you want to go through these kinds of issues.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    jamplumb
  • sgall
    sgall Member Posts: 37
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    I will give it a shot. Thanks so much for your help.

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