Hydroair vs Steam

ckandkw

Hi,

We recently bought a 100-year old house that has steam heat and a very old boiler. We are updating the house significantly (new kitchen, bath, finishing the attic and adding an extension). All the contractors we've met with are telling us should install hydro-air because doing all these changes and keeping the current system will be expensive. We like this idea because it gets rid of the clunky radiators but as we've been doing our research, we are finding that steam heat is the most comfortable (we live in an apartment with forced air right now and it is very dry). The contractors are telling us that once we factor in the cost of a new boiler and potentially another small one for the addition, that we are betting off replacing HVAC and all are telling us hydroair is the way to go. I've read some threads on this forum (very helpful!) so looking for more options for our HVAC.

DanHolohan

Congratulations on the new house! Where is it?

ckandkw

Lower Westchester

DanHolohan

Great area. Best of luck with the place.

Hydro-air is not the same as a furnace because the air moves over a hot-water coi in a hydro-air system, which doesn't get as hot as a furnace. This system does give you a lot of flexibility when you're doing major renovations.

I can't say what's involved in sticking with steam, not having seen the system, but should you decide to stay with steam, key would be having a contractor that truly understands these old systems and what's involved with relocating and adding pipes and radiators. You can get a lot of help and advice here, but the person that puts hands to the pipes is key.

Jamie Hall

Well... I am biased towards steam; I'll tell you that right up front.

However, a properly designed, sized, and installed hydroair system does have its advantages, not the least of which is that it is quite easy (although not inexpensive) to add humidity control (humidfication/dehumidification) and cooling to the system. The key to it is that first phrase: properly designed, sized, and installed. The duct work will have to be fairly large to keep velocity and noise reasonable; while this may not be a problem in an unfinished basement, it can be a real headache for a two story or more building. The tendency is for the duct work to be too small.

The cost of the boiler is not a factor -- it will be about the same for either replacing the existing steam boiler or buying a new one for the hydroair system. What is a factor is that duct work, as well as any cooling or humidity control equipment. The steam system beyond the boiler -- radiators and all -- will need minor and inexpensive work, unless you are moving a lot of radiators.

My own preference in your situation would be to find a really good steam heat man -- they do exist -- and get a new boiler, and add either hydroair or straight hydronic heat -- powered by the same boiler -- for the new work.

BobC

I agree on what has been said above. In this world you generally get what you pay for. Don't be surprised if the econobox solution ends up not being what you want. if if it isn't there is no way to fix it except tearing it all out and starting over, that means opening walls and ceilings in addition to completely gutting the heating system.

I've seen this done to beautiful old homes and most of the time the customer ends up wishing they had gone another route. The key is getting someone in that will take your wants and needs and offer a solution that will make you comfortable.

Do it once and do it right.

Bob

KC_Jones

As a homeowner I will agree with everything that has been said. I have steam in my house and love it (I grew up with forced hot air). Someone already mentioned if you require AC or not? That can be a contributing factor in you decision, but don't let it be the only factor. Remember these systems are to provide comfort so you should weigh that heavily. You really need someone that knows steam to come in and advise you on your options. Most HVAC companies just want to tear it out and put in what they know. Also for AC there is always mini split systems which are much less intrusive into the old house than traditional duct work. No matter what do lots of research before you decide and again, get a good steam man in there to advise you properly.

SWEI

A hybrid approach might also be worth considering. Depending on the balance between heating and cooling loads, sometimes a smaller heat pump (ductless or with smaller ducts) can meet all of the cooling load and part of the heating load. The steam system can be engaged when outdoor temps drop below a specified point.

RobG

I would keep the steam heat and if air conditioning is required install mini-splits to cover the shoulder season and A/C. A lot less invasive as well.

nicholas bonham-carter

Many good pieces of advice here!
Why not send us some pictures of your boiler, it's piping, and a radiator or two, so we can see what you have to work with.
As far as clunky radiators go, I think a house "of a certain age", is naked without radiators in the rooms!--NBC

ckandkw

Thank you for all the feedback!

To answer some of the questions:

1) Yes, it seems the boiler is at the end of its life - very old and needs to be replaced. Yes we will need A/C in the addition and apparently the air handler is not big enough to handle this additional load

2) Need to look into the mini-split system for AC. Hadn't heard of that before.

3) I am trying to look into finding a good steam person but how do I understand someone's steam qualifications? Any recs on this board for someone in lower Westchester? I looked at the listings on the site but none are local.

I'm going to figure out how to post some pictures. Thanks!!

ckandkw

<img

Steamhead

Looks like you have a Vapor steam system. This was the Cadillac of heating in its day and is still one of the best out there. Those airheads who want to rip it out don't know what they're doing- and they will NEVER be able to give you the comfort that steam can.

Unless the boiler is leaking or otherwise inoperable, you probably don't need to replace it right away. Those old American-Standards are built like tanks and last a long time.

Can you post a pic of where the steam mains end?

icesailor

IMO,

Unless there is a rust colored stain with water running in it from under and around the boiler to the sump pump, and the sump is continuously cycling, I'd be thinking that that boiler isn't ready for a trip to China or Birmingham as scrap.

You'd be surprised as to how nicely those Mini-Splits work in old houses.

Jamie Hall

And furthermore -- radiators can be refinished. That system ain't broke -- just maybe needs a little TLC. Get a good steam man in there (they do exist in Westchester County!) and you will be very very happy with it.

vaporvac

As another homeowner of a 100yr old house, I second keeping the steam. These houses don't feel comfortable with forced air and with steam, I've found I can keep the Tstat set lower and still feel warm. Given the general oversizing of boilers, you may be able to have steam in the new addition, or just do a hot water loop to use the excess capacity. Do the steam piping now and save your pennies for the eventual failure of the current boiler.

As for swapping out boilers, both with need new or maybe different piping. Your current set-up is way more simple and less apt to go wrong. Just my opinion as a steam homeowner of a Trane two-pipe Vaporvacuum system. Look into the Spacepak small-duct High velocity type systems for air, conditioning if you're looking for an aesthetically pleasing AC system that doesn't hack up your beautiful house.

Your house seems reasonably intact with original windows, and picture rail molding at the ceiling. Try and keep it that way and don't get sucked into the fallacious thinking that old systems, windows etc, are bad, new are better ; your future self will thank you.
p.s. I'd love to have a closer look at that mural. Colleen

wmtandson

keep the rad s
clean them up and keep that charm

Eastman

Why are all the contractors recommending hydro-air? Why not regular air?

Eastman

That's silly.

Eastman

@Steamhead or anybody else: What are the main characteristics of this apparent Vapor system? To begin with, how does one know it's a Vapor system?

j a_2

I read thru most of the comments,I like Rob G thinking, clean up the steam system, replace boiler as necessary, add mini splits…Sometimes you have to let the house design the system…I don’t think you will be happy with the invaseve work that hydro air will cause…..Keep the steam

Harvey Ramer

A further note on the mini split ac units. There are a number of choices available other than just the wall hung units. You can get floor standing units, ceiling cassette's, slim duct cassette's, ect...

A ceiling cassette basically looks like a large vent in the ceiling.

A floor standing unit will just stand upright along a wall somewhere minding it's own business, kind of like a radiator.

A slim duct unit can be utilized in several different ways. One example being, building an accent soffit in a room. It will conceal the unit perfectly and have normal vents in the soffit for air flow.

They also make small medium static airhandlers that can be used to bundle several rooms together on a mini duct system.

If you want to add something like radiant heating to the addition, you may want to consider a chilled/heated water system for AC and shoulder season heating. Spacepac makes a nice Reverse Cycle Chiller that does a good job at providing low temp heated water and chilled water for AC. They also make AirCells, small air handlers that can be used to bundle several rooms together in a zone. The airhandlers come complete with small ecm fan motors and are ready to tie into the chiller. This could handle all the AC and the heating in the shoulder season till the steam boiler is ready to be fired.


This is just a small example of available options. It's your house, your home. Pick the level of comfort that you want to live with.

I kind of put things in context this way sometimes. The price of a 2 week vacation on a cruise ship can make the difference in going from a heating and cooling system that provides a mediocre level of comfort to a comfort system that provides a lifetime of excellent level of comfort that lasts for a lifetime.

I'll stop now ;-)

KC_Jones

Harvey Ramer said:

I'll stop now ;-)

Don't say such things! Excellent information for sure! I wish we could clone the contractors that post on this site and use the clones to replace all the crappy HVAC contractors out there.

icesailor

It is my experience that many Hydro-Air "Expert" contractors were strict air heads that discovered that they could install boilers and indirect water heaters connected to their hydro-air systems and not be licensed or have inspections.

In the process, they have become "experts" at cutting the true wet heads out of the markets.

When you are a qualified "Wethead" and you understand the complete concept of heating (and cooling), you become appalled at what passes for "expert work" and what it lacks. Especially in price.

j a_2

How is it possible to not have a license and install a boiler,is it not against the law? In Mass. you must have a plumbers lic to install any water boiler…Or a gas fitter lic/plumbers lic. to install any gas appliance…Now, you must have a sheet metal lic. to install duct work, and file a building permit..I highly suggest any of you younger guys to get all the necessary lic. and training required to keep up with todays market…I as well suggest, as there is a great market ,to either teach yourself about the art of steam work..or get some apprentice,time…A mechanic is a mechanic…Don’t let the other guys keep passing you….It was always a nice feeling to wake up knowing I could earn my own living with my head and my hands,and not having to count on others…Off track a bit I was at a friends house the other day and a tenured gas fitter showed up to install a gas filter on the incoming riser, this guy was in his 50s and worked for the gas co. a long time.Well long story short he went to dissasemble the riser and had two 18in pipe wrenches a total of 180 degrees opposed,and struggled for 20 min to take apart about three 1 1/4 fittings….I laughed to myself, but was a bit concerned as the supply gas cock was attached to a old semi rusted incoming pipe…I soon left….He called me up to say the gas co. had to come back, there was a oder of gas….On overtime no less just sucking up the companies profits….And you wonder why the price of gas is so high….

j a_2

But, he is a well paid moron…most likely enjoying a nice steak dinner while the next baboon, is out fixing his work...

j a_2

How about this, maybe some day the company will wake up and farm out the work…The threat of that may get them to rethink there ways...

ckandkw

Hatterasguy said:

ckandkw said:

We had a discussion not too long ago. To determine the steam qualifications of any prospective contractor is easy. You ask them for two photos of the two latest jobs they have done. If they balk or they don't have current photos, you send them on their way. If they produce the photos (digitally), you post them on here. We determine, in a matter of minutes, whether the contractor knows steam or doesn't know steam. There is no better way to determine this than by having the knowledgeable members of this site critique their work. The people who are suggesting that you go with Hydro-air probably haven't touched a steam system in the last 10 years. They are severely biased, to say the least.

It's possible that @JStar or @Charlie from wmass will visit Westchester County but it's a haul for both of them. Either one is eminently qualified to give you the exact condition of that system and what it currently required. Even if you must pay them for the consultation (due to the distance involved), do it. You cannot get better advice from anyone.

I talked to Joe on the phone this morning from A Superior Service and Repair Company Inc in Staten Island. (https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/a-superior-service-and-repair-company-inc). He seemed very knowledgeable and could come to lower Westchester but just wanted to check here and see if there was any feedback about him.

All these comments are extremely helpful. We are first-time homeowners and are figuring out things as we go.
I will try to post a few more pictures of the system later this weekend. Thanks again!

j a_2

One would hope a steam guy is a steam guy…If not he’s a phony...

j a_2

Maybe not, but things are right and wrong…A phony in this businesses is someone who sells himself as something he’s not….No excuses in my mind….

icesailor

"" How is it possible to not have a license and install a boiler,is it not against the law. In Mass. you must have a plumbers lic to install any water boiler… ""

At this time, and for all time, it is and was not illegal for anyone to install ant boiler or heating appliance in Massachusetts. You might need a Oil Burner Certificate of Competency to connect the oil to a oil boiler. You need a Plumber's License to connect to a gas boiler or appliance. You need a Plumbers License to connect the potable water connection to the boiler. The Massachusetts Plumbing Code stops at the backflow device. Any fool can connect and pipe up the hydronic system heating system. Now, you need a license to connect/install a warm air furnace.

Maybe some cities have their own rules, but those may not be enforced by the Commonwealth.

When electric heat fell out of favor, and Congress turned electric power generating into a monopoly and the same with gas distribution, oil became a free for all (which it was somewhat in some areas). The gas HVAC airheads saw the chance to get into Hydronics and sell and install Indirect's. They would illegally install all the potable piping and some even did the gas piping. They were NEVER supposed to the venting of gas equipment. But Plumbers, gas fitters and inspectors let it slide.


"" Or a gas fitter lic/plumbers lic. to install any gas appliance…Now, you must have a sheet metal lic. to install duct work, and file a building permit.. ""

You also may not connect a vented bathroom light to the outdoors without a sheet metal license.

So, id a gas fitter is responsible for venting a gas dryer, who is responsible to vent an electric dryer? If an Electrician doesn't have a sheet metal license, he can't.

They're sorting it out as we speak.

Boilers over 400,000 BTU input are supposed to be permitted and inspected by the Dept. of Public Safety. Boilers under 400,000 have no working code or inspections. Other than an oil inspection, oil inspection or wiring inspection.

j a_2

Ice I will look at the code in a bit…But I think a dryer is exhausted and not vented per nfpa….Does the wording change things, i am not sure…You ever see any of the work you call ( any fool ),,,can do….Its amazing what you see…out here over time…Reading the front cover of a Rinnai install manual…It states In the Commonwealth of Mass. this boiler must be installed by a lic. plumber or gas fitter….I see that on every boiler….Pretty simple

SWEI

We're veering off into another discussion here, but what the heck -- I'll bite.

As so often seems to be the case today, the HVAC business suffers from a perverse combination of over- and under-regulation. Somehow we always seem to end up with the worst of both worlds instead of the best.

To install or replace most boilers here in NM technically requires three separate licenses and at least three (sometimes four) journeyman cards. Very few contractors actually have all of this in house. The experience requirements are tough enough (8,000 documented hours working for a licensed contractor within the past ten years) that it's pretty much impossible for a single individual to qualify on all of them. The job is getting more and more technical, yet the overwhelming majority of current license holders just aren't interested in learning anything new. Our rural areas are starved for journeymen and the customers are suffering as a result. [/rant off]

KC_Jones

j a said:

He called me up to say the gas co. had to come back, there was a oder of gas….On overtime no less just sucking up the companies profits….And you wonder why the price of gas is so high….

I used to work for a utility...I could tell you stories. Let's just say my work ethic didn't fit well with that particular employer.

icesailor

@SWEI:

The licensure requirements are getting so tough that no one will go into the trades. The manufacturers want their equipment installed properly, but they have little or no training to do so. IE: Weil-Mclain ending their Tech Support and turning it over to their manufacturers reps. As a cost cutting measure. All reps are not the same.

Just why would a Rep for some Mod Con, bought and installed by a HO, with no training or experience, and bought from some Internet Supply house. The Gas Companies are worse.

Everyone wants workers with experience. How will someone get experience if no one will give them a job.

For those of us over 35 years old, we've seen the best of it.

bio_guy

A comment in the original post has not been addressed. Dry air in the heating season primarily comes from a leaky home envelope. Tighten the house up and it won't be so dry.

Steamhead

Eastman said:

@Steamhead or anybody else: What are the main characteristics of this apparent Vapor system? To begin with, how does one know it's a Vapor system?

A Vapor system is a steam system which almost always has two pipes connected to each radiator and does not have air vents on the radiators. Most such systems have a thermostatic trap on each radiator return connection, but some use other types of return fittings (Broomell, Kriebel, Richardson et al) or just plain 1/2-inch return elbows (ADSCO, Thermal, Tudor et al).

The advantage of this type of steam system is you could control individual radiators with the hand valves, which is not possible on one-pipe systems.

The name "Vapor" comes from the fact that these systems typically ran at no more than 1/2 pound of steam pressure.

AlCorelliNY

So, you guys all forgot about me here in Westchester?
Been working here for over 30 years.

Where's Clammy and Mad Dog?
Somebody here has to remember me.

Al Corelli Associates Inc.
Mamaroneck, NY
"We warm you in ways you'd never imagine"
Boilersavant@gmail.com

Bob Bona_4

Hi Al! I remember you! Long time no see!

Steamhead

AlCorelliNY said:

So, you guys all forgot about me here in Westchester?
Been working here for over 30 years.

Where's Clammy and Mad Dog?
Somebody here has to remember me.

Al Corelli Associates Inc.
Mamaroneck, NY
"We warm you in ways you'd never imagine"
Boilersavant@gmail.com

We "remember" you all right Good to see you back on The Wall!