Review of new piping please

edmartin

Hello All, I had a new replacement boiler installed. Not sure if this is correct. I get good/ok heat at all heaters except the living room and 3rd floor bedroom. Living gets halfway hot, bedroom stays cold unless heater is running for over 30 minutes. All basement mains are insulated and sloping correct. No main vents. all air vents on rads are good and sloping correct. In my humble opinion the header looks low and I am thinking of adding a main vent on 2" heading towards the right on sketch.

nicholas bonham-carter

The header is too low, and too small, with a reducing 90 which probably gives you wet steam. The instructions for that boiler will show what should be there-pipe sizes, layout, etc.
Put plenty of large main vents on the dry return, for quicker response.
Install a 0-3 psi gauge on the pigtail, so low pressure can be confirmed.
Has the boiler been skimmed free of oil yet?--NBC

edmartin

Thank you, I had several issues with the pro-installer. I left this to the pro and only now am finding I need to be more educated than I want to be to fix. No skimming yet (5 weeks installed). I plan on installing a skim pipe tonight. Regarding the header I thought I saw 2" was ok for pipe A and header in manual??
Just don't want the plumber back and may not come back but I know I need someone to rethink the setup.

Dave0176

edmartin said:

Thank you, I had several issues with the pro-installer. I left this to the pro and only now am finding I need to be more educated than I want to be to fix. No skimming yet (5 weeks installed). I plan on installing a skim pipe tonight. Regarding the header I thought I saw 2" was ok for pipe A and header in manual??
Just don't want the plumber back and may not come back but I know I need someone to rethink the setup.

First things first the header should be minimum of 24" above the center of the gauge glass. Yes in the manual 2" is MINIMUM, however even your rizers seem really small, hard to tell but they look like 1-1/2, they should 2" minimum too. The manual also recommends the take off risers to be installed upward not sideways.

Most of us go above and beyond the factory manual for near boiler piping because it helps the system run a lot better.

KC_Jones

The equalizer piping off the header is incorrect as well. They tied the equalizer in with all the return pipes. And I will reiterate the header is too low, actually I can't see anything correct with that header. Did the installer measure all your radiators to size the boiler properly? From those pictures I would be questioning pretty much everything they did. And I agree with NBC you need main vents. That is definetly one reason it is taking so long to heat the rads. If that system is as small as the boiler indicates you should get steam to all the rads in about 3-4 minutes MAX. If you get some insulation on those pipes it will be even faster. That is with proper main venting.

edmartin

Hi KC, Thank you. I do believe the rads where at least counted and maybe measured. I need to learn how to measure the rads for my own knowledge. Header and return all look a mess to me.
My apartment is 1400 SF and I have 7 rads (3 are 3'hx16"w), 1 is 3'h x 6"w, 1 is 18"h x 24"w thin, 1 is 12"h x 48"w thin and the largest is in the bedroom at 3'h x 3' w x 6" thick.
Don't know where to find a steam guy in Plymouth MA area
Boiler is PEG 35-5 Weil Mclain

edmartin

Thank you all.
looks like a rebuild of the header is needed along with adding main venting.
I tried to remove the 1" skim tap plug but no luck. Seems hard to get a good purchase on bolt head. So skimming has been delayed.

edmartin

Removed the skim plug this morning and skimmed for about two hours and then flushed boiler per manual (no chemicals). I wanted to post these pictures to show what my boiler first skim looks like (although I did drain some dirty water out last week from bottom mud valve). top 3 pictures are skim, more of a rust color. bottom 3 pictures are flush more of a black tint.
pot on stove is boiling the first skim. after skimming and first cold fire took 1 hour to get apartment up 10 degrees, all rads heated about same rate. water in site glass bounces about 3/8" inch. pressure gage shows 1 lb after 1 hour and hit 70 degrees from 60 degrees. Temp range in 2nd floor apartment: living room 70, kitchen 68, 3rd floor bedroom 66.
Thanks again and I hope my information may help others.

kcopp

skimming is nice but you really need to start from the beginning. Look Install Instructions... simple as that.
Cant fix that piping set up.
You will end up spending more on gas and be less comfortable.

edmartin

Thanks Kcopp, I will work on getting the header and Hartford loop fixed. I'm not sure i can tackle that. I looked at the piping and i don't have any unions on one riser or part of the dry return so i can't figure out how to get apart. My next step is to look for a stream guy who can do the piping right in my area. As far as skimming goes i was happy i could get the plug removed and do something better than my pro plumber.

kcopp

You paid to have the boiler installed...and installed properly. Call him back a tell him so. If he is a stand up guy he will fix it. If not tell the local plumbing/ mechanical inspector and they will/ should go to bat for you.

edmartin

I did pay to have the boiler replace, the furnace replaced and a hot water heater replaced. All by same heating contractor. Furnace nightmare (installed 100k btu for 800sf apartment). after weeks of bs and promises he did remove and replace as required with 40k btu. all working fine now. Don't even want the contractor back. Willing to pay someone else to fix his work or try it myself.
Not a good experience from the start.
Just finished reading and applying some of "the lost art of steam heating" Great info. Would recommend to anyone along with this site for pre-replacement/repair knowledge. If only I knew then what I know now I would have most likely paid less and got a better job.

nicholas bonham-carter

"If only I knew then what I know now I would have most likely paid less and got a better job."

How true, how true!!!--NBC

edmartin

So not to allow the new header to be messed up can anyone offer an opinion on my description of size, configuration and the type of fittings I should have installed on the header?
Header replacement size of pipe will be 3" riser (36" high) to 90 then 3" reducing T's (up 3"x3"x2") (2" to mains) and couplings (T's to main to be vertical) and finally 3" to 2" 90 returning down to 2" equalizer,
What type of fittings.
I know a little about cast and malleable types and cast may be easier to replace down the line and allow hammer to break apart if needed but: What is the best type to use for quality installation? I'm looking in supplyhouse for my parts an they offer 3 types for most parts, can or should they be mixed in the header? : Cast, Mal, and import. any thoughts please.
Excuse the crude sketch.
Thanks

Dave0176

Your sketch looks good, remember you have another steam tapping on that boiler. I install that boiler a lot, I run 2) 2" risers out of the boiler into a 3" drop header. Makes the install and operation very nice.

KC_Jones

Agreed!

edmartin

in a drop header if my existing single riser is 3" does this mean I need to reduce the riser to 2" with bushings at the boiler tapping? and is the 2nd riser tapping setup for 2" or are they all 3" in the PEG35? manual does not show and it certainly does not shoe a double tap for the peg35 only the egh.
Thinking this thru and possibly considering the drop header if the system is that much better.
Thanks again for all your help and concern, Ed
This replacement has been a eye opening experience and not from an enjoyable view.

edmartin

PS really dig the flame graphic, is that something you do on you installs?

KC_Jones

I am a homeowner not a pro. That is my boiler and the graphics were done by a close friend who paints for a living.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

I am a homeowner not a pro. That is my boiler and the graphics were done by a close friend who paints for a living.

Just a "gifted" homeowner/Steam Installer with Artsy Friends!

KC_Jones

Thanks Fred!

edmartin

is it generally ok to take a 90 degree turn on the header before the risers to the mains?

Fred

Yes, not a problem. Boiler risers on one side, risers to the Mains next (ok after the 90 degree turn and then the Equalizer off of the end after the Risers to the Main, preferably with about 15 inches between the last Main riser and the equalizer. slight pitch (1/4") all along the Header towards the Equalizer. Use 90 degree elbows at the top of the Boiler Risers into the Header to give you the swing joints you need.

JudySweetland

KC_Jones said:

I am a homeowner not a pro. That is my boiler and the graphics were done by a close friend who paints for a living.

KC, you know more than many "pros". A good example is this install that was done for edmartin. I love the graphics too.

misterheat

I went through a crappy install by a plumber in my area and i look at it this way . Yes it cost me money to fix because i didnt want this non steam plumber back in my house BUT what i have learned in the process was like paying for an education that i can bring with me anywhere i go . I have even helped a friend with some easy issues and in this whole process Ive learned i really enjoy the challenge . tuning an old one pipe system i equate to the old V-8s i used to tune for the track ...always looking at the details to get it to run a little better . BTW the boiler graphics your friend painted are AWESOME !!

edmartin

I've decided to run the system as installed for this season. Do my changes in the summer and see how it compares.
Thanks to all. Ed