1 zone now, considering 2 zones

maybemark

gordy, i like your idea the best, but harvey doesn't think the amount of vents I want to instl will be enough. i have no idea if it's enough or not, but i I would put more in, i don't think it will look good. In my head i would put the flush vents in, like you see on hard wood floors even with the top of the floor

Gordy

Bad: plant tipped over

I don't know how the framing is put together underneath. I would do some router surgery. Start with a 3/4" router bit along each window make 2-3 slits 1" apart under each window. Then come out to the fore ground and make a series of longitudal slits.

Gordy

Something like so.

Gordy

Opps

SWEI

Okay, I see now what Gordy obviously recognized awhile back. I read "one wall of windows, the room is about 14 x 20 with 12' ceilings in it" as a rather different architectural detail.

Gordy

Wth, there build from what looks pleasing, and functional from this.

maybemark

Gordy
I lke the idea, the thought came thru my head too but, the top, has a peice of 1/4" plywood on top, glued down with a thousand nails on it. I put the plywood there, so i know this is a fact I probably be going thru alot of router bits, but it might be worth it.
also, would not be able to connect the lines, that would loose the integrety of the top. and would have to start maybe about 4" from the windows, There has to be some kind of structure around the perimeter holding the top up from under
I do think it's a great ides, i think that would be much more than air flow than the 4 vents
thanks
Mark

maybemark

Bummer
I looked at the area again, opened up the screens, and there is wire mesh with plaster or cement over the radiators.
(bottom side of top)
Gordy, I picked up the plant, thanks

Gordy

So the rads are,closer to the front, and not the windows Mark?

Got any idea how thick the plaster is?

BobC

that plaster is probably why the plants are not getting baked by the radiators heat. Adding vents to that shelf might well make it an inhospitable place for vents.

It looks like there is a 1X4 that runs underneath the shelf, if there is real support in the middle between the screens two long vents might improve the convection. You could try adding a 1" opening of that long 1X4 above each screen.

A couple of small thermostatically controlled fans might still be the easiest way out of this conundrum.

Bob

maybemark

Gordy
the radiators are right in back of the screen, maybe an inch, if not less. The plaster, is only about 3/8 thick, but it's on wire lathe. it would be imposible to work on it from below
Bob
Guessing, there are 2 2x4's in front, there is a piece of molding triming out and making it look finished and the middle is not supporting the 2x4's but holding the screen front.
the fans do work, but the ones i have was expensive to operate. I was looking for them last night in my messy basement, couldn't find them yet. I want to see the watage on them
thanks guys
Mark

maybemark

this is what I had beind the radiators last year . soldered the wires and put shrink over the joints. It doesn't give watts, but the apms are very low.
maybe this wasn't what was giving me the high electric bills.
honestly, i don't know if this help caused the increase or i was a combination of other things also, but, when i stopped using it, my bills came down

maybemark

I figured it out, it's 31 watts, is that alot?

BobC

I'm guessing those fans draw about 30w each for a total of 60w. If the fans ran 10 hours a day that would be 600 watt hours a day or about 18 KWH a month.

There is always the possibility the label is wrong but if it's correct that should have cost you about $2.70 a month (at 15 cents a KWH).

Did the motors seem too hot - they should run at 125 F or so. Put them on a table and let them run for an hour and see if you can tell if they are drawing a lot of power,

Bob

maybemark

Bob
it's worth the $2.70 a month.
last year was a killer winter for Chicago.
I might have had the fan on with the 2 gutter heaters on, and all my fish tank heater on, maybe the combination , espesially the gutters, made my bill so high

BobC

Gutter heaters can use a lot of juice in a frigid winter. A friends wife decided she liked the way the hot tub looked with the insulating cover off and the underwater lights on. That came to a fast end when he found his electric usage went up by 400KWH a month in September with the insulating cover off all the time.

You can buy a killowatt type meter for short money, there are several types available -

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=killowatt

Bob

Gordy

Go with the fans if they worked well Mark. Even control them on off with a heat cycle.

maybemark

I just put the fans back. I think my way with the attic fantherostat is better, beace it will stay on longer than if it would go with the heat cycle. I think I would want to pull out as much of that air as possible. I set the therostat at 95 degrees, at 80, it had turned onbut the grill was off for sometime, so I am guessing that it got cooler back there. I put the thermostat right on top of the radiator

maybemark

I do have an amp tester, it is meant for testing the loads on wire at the circuit breaker box, wonder if that would work, probably too large to work on mili amps.
I will try this for a month, and see how it does

SWEI

maybemark said:

this is what I had beind the radiators last year . soldered the wires and put shrink over the joints.

Was there supposed to be a photo or a link there?

maybe this wasn't what was giving me the high electric bills.
honestly, i don't know if this help caused the increase or i was a combination of other things also, but, when i stopped using it, my bills came down

Any chance you happened to stop using the gutter heaters about the same time?

maybemark

yes, i showed a photo, i guess it failed I didn't know.
there is a very good chance that the same time I used the gutter heaters less.
I have had it on now, it already raised the temp 1 degree

maybemark

it's shing out the air, and the boiler is not on. I have the thermostat on top of the radiator

maybemark

I posted the photos again, I don't know why they are on it's side, and why so large, the preview was up and down proper and much smaller

Paul48

In order to make that proper, the plants would not survive there. You'd need to cut in floor registers in front of each window.

SWEI

If you install a couple of 8" muffin fans behind (or in front of) the radiators near the top you will get MUCH better performance.

maybemark

Thanks Paul
I have a fan running behind the radiator on a thermostat, and it's working great

maybemark

maybe it would be better, but i have this fan, and in a short time, it went up 1 degree, not asking for heat

maybemark

it went up 2 degrees, it's 67 in there now, the rest of the house is around 69

Zman

I like the idea of the fans. You may be able to get by with just grills. Could you cut in a standard heat register like a 4x12 then add the fans to the underside if needed? The make some cool retro registers that would match the rest of the house.

SWEI

Sounds like the photo did not show the fan in its operating position - apologies.

maybemark

when i took th photo, i had it on the table, just to show.
the fan is placed behibd the radiators, and the thermostat is on top of the radiator, set at 100 degrees
Carl
So one on here stated the redisters might end up hurting the plants, I tend to agree, i probably be watering them every dayif not 2 times a day.
the fan i have in there now, came up 2 degrees in a short period of time, and my huse thermostat is not asking for heat

maybemark

the fan finally stopped, but the room is only 76 degrees, so i turned down the fan thermostat to 95 degrees, the fan kicked on, lets see if the temp gets to 68 or 69, it's still very hot, where the radiators are

Paul48

How about this.........Cut narrow floor registers across the front edge of the seat, use deflectors, and let the plants have the space behind.

maybemark

Paul
that would probably work.
if i can make a suggestion to you Paul, don't get a 2nd job as a designer. The deflectors wouldn't look so nice.
but thank you for your thoghts.
In the mean time, it's nice and warm in the living room, but today, in chicago is very sunny and 38 degrees

Paul48

The other thoughts, I'll keep to myself. Best Wishes, Happy New Year!

maybemark

if I hurt your feeling I am truly sorry
happy new year to you too

FranklinD

Maybe this was answered earlier, but... How much room is there between the top of the radiators and the underside of the enclosure?

Our master bedroom had two radiators enclosed in a cabinet with a solid top and metal/tin screens over the front and sides. As does our kitchen radiator.

For the kitchen, I cut four 2"x12" openings at the floor to allow the cool air to flow in to the underside of the radiator better (the kitchen enclosure has an open top). Made a HUGE difference. Prior to my cuts, the air had to 'hop' over the 4" tall bottom board of the cabinet.

For the bedroom, with a solid top that I didn't want to cut holes in, I had about 4" between the top of the radiators and the underside of the top. I used bubble foil sheeting (reflectix) to build 'scoops' from the back wall (behind the rad) up to the top, so in theory, the rising warm air will be 'scooted' out towards the mesh front of the enclosure. It definitely affected how much warm air comes out of that cabinet.

Two years later, though, we removed the entire enclosure doing a room fix-up. And holy bejeebus do those 2 radiators overheat the room now (room is 23x12, 8.5' ceiling, total of 90 EDR - hot water). Probably why they built the cabinet as they did...back when it was still coal fired and HOT water more often than not.

Best of luck to you...my 101 yr old house has some similar challenges, but we don't have the solid brick construction.

We did elect to keep as many of the plaster walls as possible, mainly for thermal mass. I personally believe it does make a big difference in the temp swings.

maybemark

the 1st think i thought, and mentioned, was to go to the basement and make some big holes, then cut the floor behind the radiator, i can only work from the basement to do this. That idea was voted down

Harvey Ramer

I think you are on the right track with the fan. I would add a little more control to it though. I would install a room thermostat in series with the stat that you have installed by the rad. That would prevent the room from over heating at the same time as preventing the fan from running when the rads are cold.

maybemark

Harvey
I put the fan on an attic fan therostat. set the thermostat on top of the radiators. set the temp to 95 degrees, this way it will shut off the fan, when it goes below 95 in that area.
Mark